Donk with two pair or better.

    • ListenAces
      ListenAces
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.03.2013 Posts: 252
      So I've been told that donking is bad.
      I've donked VERY little lately, mostly when tilting.

      So imagine my surprise when I brush up on the basic Turn/River article
      and it says to donk two-pair or better.

      Now what say you guys?
      Is donking okay when getting two pair or better?
      Have I missed something? :s_confused:
  • 14 replies
    • Boomer2k10
      Boomer2k10
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.09.2010 Posts: 2,551
      Does it give any sitution in which to do that becasue I can't imagine that it's recommending that as a 6-max strategy vs 1 opponent
    • unshpe
      unshpe
      Basic
      Joined: 20.05.2013 Posts: 294
      Usually I find a donkbet on the river from a fish (especially a decent size one) after a passive c/c line is 80%+ slowplayed monsters or rivered 2pair+ that just hate the idea of you checking back the river. So , if the other guy thinks like me, you don't need any cards to donkbet into him on the river ;) . If he is a filthy calling station, donkbet top pair good kicker even.

      Stop reading static articles. Poker is situational and dynamic.
    • ListenAces
      ListenAces
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.03.2013 Posts: 252
      Yes I think all those are about 10-max when I think about it.
      So basically you should never donk at 10-max, but at 6-max it is not as clear cut?
    • Boomer2k10
      Boomer2k10
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.09.2010 Posts: 2,551
      6-max I defintiely wouldn't either

      There's no real difference in how each game should be approached, maths is the same, hand ranges are just a bit different, as are your opponents
    • ListenAces
      ListenAces
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.03.2013 Posts: 252
      But how do I consolidate this info then?

      http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/fixed-limit/236/1/


      How do you play on the turn?
      .
      .
      .
      Nobody has bet yet and you don't have the initiative

      You bet with ...

      a two-pair or better.


      You check with ...

      any other hand.
    • Boomer2k10
      Boomer2k10
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.09.2010 Posts: 2,551
      The examples that article gives aren't clear so I would be very hesitant to take it as a sweeping statement, it could also mean the previous guy with initiative has now given up

      Also I'm tittering a bit at example 7 where you have no initiaive, that's the easiest X/R I've ever seen, why would you donk there when your opponent has definied his hand as Top Pair, a set or a draw, donking only makes sense vs a set there becasue it saves you a bet and that's huge MUB thinking.

      Tbh that entire hand is a disaster.

      Basicallty it was written 5 years ago for games that no longer exist when LHE theory was nothing like as developed as it is now
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Well i guess donking is illegal :)

      But on a sirious note, there's a ton of spots where having a donking range is pretty much a must on both FR and 6max games.

      First spot where pretty much everyone (should) have wide donking ranges are multiway pots since you really don't want to give free cards.

      Second one is vs fish. This one is an absolute must. You will have fishes that will check back Q2 3 times on a Q5389 flop, but on the other hand will call 3 potsized donks with this same hand. U effectively lost 40bb of value easy in a spot like this.

      Vs a passive fish donking is a must. Going for a double check raise when and the donk on the river just to see that a fish checked back with TP twice is just a total disaster.

      Another one i've been experimanting with lately is vs the russian scum with 40bb's. On a lot of boards you can just donk and they will be raising you like 50% of the time so you can just ship a ton of weak draws and made hands against that kind of autoraise vs a donk.
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      Originally posted by MatejM47
      Another one i've been experimanting with lately is vs the russian scum with 40bb's. On a lot of boards you can just donk and they will be raising you like 50% of the time so you can just ship a ton of weak draws and made hands against that kind of autoraise vs a donk.
      Best Fixed Limit strategy ever :f_biggrin:
    • ListenAces
      ListenAces
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.03.2013 Posts: 252
      Tbh that entire hand is a disaster.Basicallty it was written 5 years ago for games that no longer exist when LHE theory was nothing like as developed as it is now


      Ok thanks.
      I was fishing for that kind of statement or it's inverse.
      You kinda wanna know what information you should work hard on and what to discard.
    • cjheigl
      cjheigl
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 09.04.2006 Posts: 24,616
      The articles were written way back in the bronze age of poker where most of the players wondered what the raise button was for when you simply could press the call button instead. This doesn't mean that there wasn't (or isn't) a way to exploit the weaknesses of players even more. The basic articles are what they are: basic guidelines for players who don't have any knowledge or skill to determine what relative hand strengths are, who don't have a clue about what a range is and are totally helpless about predicting what their opponents might do next.

      So they get a set of simple instructions that tell them what kind of absolute hand strength merit what kind of action and what to do if they encounter resistance. Given the environment back then that was enough to actually win or at least hold your own in the micros (and I think it still works with todays lowest micro limits as long as you play full ring holdem).

      The goal was to not overwhelm a new player with information while giving him somethings that works. Still, it was dead easy (and still is) to acquire bronze status where you can get a lot more information. You just had to solve a quiz or play a single hand for real money in a partner room (lowest stake is enough).

      Understanding the principle of relative hand strength and adjusting to the game of your opponent is taught in the articles of silver and above.

      Today the game is much more competitive even in the micro limits. It is desirable for a new player to get to the silver status quickly where he can find some really important principles explained. Pokerstrategy acknowledges this and makes it very easy to acquire silver status with the 10 strategy points a day promotion.

      I also think that coaching micro limit players has evolved a lot compared to the old times.

      For example 7: a lot of the opponents back then would have checked behind a Q at the river because of fear of a K. These guys: http://www.pokerstrategy.com/news/world-of-poker/+EV-Cartoon-of-the-Day-82_73686/

      Of course that still makes some of the advice in the article outdated.
    • ListenAces
      ListenAces
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.03.2013 Posts: 252
      I win following that formula with the check raise modification on 5c/10c. ;)

      I didn't realize the difference as I had read the article some times
      and only afterwards I learned about the no donk principle.
      Right now I was encountering some resistance and earlier training in martial arts
      have taught me the importance of revisiting the basics whenever you struggle.

      So I was like... Why do the basics encourage donking??? :s_confused:

      I was suspecting that the answer was old article.
      But I didn't dare to assume it without asking.

      I'm starting to warm up to the ideas of the bronze articles,
      but I know with myself that starting on silver right now is a needless
      information overload.

      I will wait until I feel tight on all the info covered in bronze.
      I wonder though if there are any other articles that are hopelessly outdated in any way.

      Like this one.
      Is it sound or are there flaws?
      http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/fixed-limit/944/
    • Avataren
      Avataren
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.04.2010 Posts: 1,621
      pm me for HU match ill crush you and we can look at what went wrong for you :)

      pm hu money ofc. (Playmoney)
    • taavi1337
      taavi1337
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.05.2009 Posts: 2,920
      Originally posted by ListenAces
      Like this one.
      Is it sound or are there flaws?
      http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/fixed-limit/944/
      Hi! That article is good for the absolute basics. It helped me a lot when I was starting out. It might be necessary at the beginning for an easy start, but you should move on quickly and start thinking on your own. Every situation is unique!

      An example:

      Some fishes like to donk paired flops a lot, like QQ7 with pure bluffs. They probably do this because they think: "you can't have anything here! I will bluff you!" or "I will rep the trips" or some other reason.

      Now you have to decide how to play back. If you follow the standard advice: call flop/raise turn with a strong value hand (like AA or Qx), they're going to b/f the turn a lot as big part of their range is just air. But maybe you can get one more extra bet if you call the turn again and raise (or call) the river? Or vs aggro guys you might want to raise the flop to make it look like a bluff, hoping to get rebluffed again. Be creative and see what's going on. Find your own ways to a nice winrate =)
    • ListenAces
      ListenAces
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.03.2013 Posts: 252
      Thanks taavi I will study it well then. :s_cool:

      Yeah last time we played was an eyeopener for me Avataren.
      Made me realize that there was a limit to tight play.
      I still havn't figured out exactly where that limit goes,
      but I have a somewhat better idea.

      But now I'm tired...
      Long day with both mental and physical work.
      Bed is a huge temptation that I will soon indulge in... :f_love: