set miners

    • racenutalways
      racenutalways
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.07.2008 Posts: 172
      What advice would you give for set miners?? When a TAG raises pot size pre-flop and one holds 55-99. I see this way too often in low limit. Tag raises with AA, moron calls 55 and hits a 5. I for one rarely hit a set often enough to call PFR with lo-med pairs.
  • 12 replies
    • cannell555
      cannell555
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.03.2008 Posts: 2,410
      Hi racenutalways,

      For small pocket pairs you need to apply the call 20 rule, when there is a raise. More info on the call 20 rule can be found here http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/no-limit/270/5/

      Best regards,
      Stiev
    • racenutalways
      racenutalways
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.07.2008 Posts: 172
      I understand the "call 20". But how much do you call on PFR raises.

      Is the raise more than 6 times the big blind. You should only play monster hands (AA and KK) and very strong hands (QQ, JJ and AK) if there's such a big raise with at least 6 times the big blind in front of you. Reraise with AA and KK and just call with QQ, JJ and AK.


      These set miners call any pair at any price. Playing these monsters aggressively has only proven a huge drop in my BR.

      Is the raise more than 10 times the big blind In this case are only AA and KK playable. You reraise with both hands and fold all other hands If there is a raise and a reraise ahead, you continue playing only with AA and KK and reraise with them. Lay down all the other hands.


      The problem here is these set miners have been lucking on me way too often.
      If I called every raise with the lo-mid pairs, I'd surely be broke before long. Set over sets happen often enough not to call with these little pairs. How do you protect yourself from these situations. Raising 10XBB in higher stakes may have better success, but in lo limit, umm, raising to thin out the field only excites these "pro" players. You throw a piece of bread in the pond and watch these fishes rush to the top and compete against other fishies.
    • cannell555
      cannell555
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.03.2008 Posts: 2,410
      Hi racenutalways,

      Where are you finding them quotes? If someone raises 6bb's and I still have a call20 rule, I call.

      If your up against a guy raising 10bb's, and you have a call20 rule, then call imo. Chances are if you hit, you will be able to take this guys stack, as he's playing his hand strong.

      Best regards,
      Stiev
    • racenutalways
      racenutalways
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.07.2008 Posts: 172
      Those are quoted from http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/no-limit/270/6/

      I use the call 20 rule from time to time, but never above 4xBBs for 22-99 5XBBs for TT and 6XBBs with JJ-QQ am I wrong to think this way? Maybe I should adjust that.
    • cannell555
      cannell555
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.03.2008 Posts: 2,410
      I play different to what that article is quoting. My reason is, if a player is raising 5-10 bb's, he is playing his hand strong, and is willing to put his stack in the middle. Therefore if we hit, its going to be easier to take his money.

      IMO, as long as we have a call20 rule, then we should call.

      I'd be interested in hearing other peoples views on this aswell, anyone?

      Best regards,
      Stiev
    • LuborC
      LuborC
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.04.2008 Posts: 1,243
      100% agree. As long as there is 20 times the amount to be had I would call. If you only play for set value in limped pots you will barely ever stack someone since they didn't even have a strong enough hand to raise with in the beginning so they will probably not be willing to suddenly put the money in on the flop...
    • shanshichi
      shanshichi
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.04.2009 Posts: 378
      I tend to have the same problem on rush poker . NL5

      But after the raise they call the 3-bet and they get often lucky and hit the set .

      I'm always going broke overpair vs set . I can't explain how much that bothers me...sometimes i'm just willing to 3bet all-in to any raise with AA or KK.
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      It is usually a losing strategy to call a 3-bet with a low pocket pair for set value alone. You don't need to protect yourself against a losing strategy. If you try to get away from AA more frequently, then you will be vulnerable to getting bluffed off too much of your range.

      It can be profitable to set-mine in raised pots with 100 bb stacks against some players. You do want to be a less profitable target. The solution is not to make huge raises with AA, but instead to raise a wider range, and not to pay off with as much of your range or with your whole stack. Raise with AK, and then get away from AK unimproved when they have a set. Raise with JJ, and don't stack off on a king-high flop. Raise with T9s, and back off when your cbet is called or raised unless you have a big hand or a big draw. Be particularly cautious in multiway pots.

      Have a reason to bet. Do not bet just because you have been betting, or to look strong. Bet when you think betting will make more money than not betting. Sometimes you may want to take a pot-control line with one good pair to aim for 2 streets of value instead of 3. For example, you might bet the flop, check the turn, and then call the river or bet if the river is checked to you. Against a calling station, this will get less value when they have top pair or second pair, but against players who set-mine a lot, this might get almost as much value from weaker 1-pair hands while making set-mining unprofitable,
    • racenutalways
      racenutalways
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.07.2008 Posts: 172
      I hear you shansi. It' funny how much they are willing to call to get lucky. I had one call a R from UT+3 with 22, I 3betted to 27bbs{BTN} he called and set up! I've been called 15BBs with 44 and 27bbs with 77. Micros, ship it. That's just today BTW. Or keep the pot marginal, if RR muck em. NL10 and up is full of nits playing lagg to be deceitful. Set mining is the craze there. Calling off nearly 1/3 your stack on a 12% chance to catch. Even playing small pairs EP some in MP is spewing away chips.
      Call 20 rule? OOP and HU with small pairs????? OMG!!!
      You may apply any rule you like, but you will only catch the novices. Todays players have no problem laying down big pairs an set mining is only +EV vs certain opponents. I set mine if there at least 2 in the pot b4 it comes to me and only in position. In the blinds you are OOP, why the heck are you chasing 2 outers OOP??? Check your poker database an see if small pairs aren't spewing in the earlier position, do the same for s-conn, another overplayed hand OOP
      A lot of value in these hands but think b4 you play. I personally play aces no different than I would play TT JJ or AK, bet for value but not too much vs chasers and set miners. You want to bet enough to give them bad odds to chase and not too much in case they hit and makes folding easier.

      My AA vs KK all in pre flpp showdowns results....... win 70% lose 30% a little off the norm, but I'm not good at catching miracles. LOL

      The problem with raising all in you can only be called by AA-KK. At micros,,,,well I've been called by Kxs more then once, so ship it............. I do, about 25% with KK and about 15% with AA first to act. Drives them nutty, they 3bet me, I'm a shoving 1/2 my stack 10% and all in the rest of the time.

      What I do like about the set miners is they make themselves easy to read. 60% pot cbets usually sends them off, they are fit or fold, if the board is draw heavy they will raise the flop if not bet OOP. Easy tell. If the board is dry they will peel off a card and blast you with huge raise trying to commit your stack!! EZ read....... Remember Aces is just a pair you have 8% chance to improve by the river and even then it may not be enough. Let them go, get used to it. We play 100s of hands per day, in my case 7500 hands a day. Laying down an over pair isn't that hard. If your gutt tells you you're beat, you're beat. Throw them a bone once in a while and pay them off, AA can sustain hits, keeps them honest and your reads dead on 95% of th time. I like RR their raise and make certian they aren't bluffing, the all in is a sure tell, if he thinks you can't fold aces, he'd shipping his set for value hoping to get a call. One rule I follow religiously when I'm praying for my 2 outer is making sure he has 8X his raise in his stack and also myself. Flopping a set equals to about 8:1 so it's only fitting to set mine with the right odds in position.
      If you call 3,5bbs to catch your set, you need to win something like 30bbs to break even, if your opponent 3bets you to 10 bbs say, then you need to win 50-60 bbs to break even. You still need to consider your opponent, you should be set mining tight OOP and any position vs fish who overplay top pair. You rarely have the implied odds vs opponents who play well post flop.

      1)stack sizes
      2)likely hood he's gonna stack off
      3)position( tight utg)
      4)don't set mine OOP vs strong opponents
      5)call 20 rule


      BTW, yo set miners, when I ship, you'll have 1 out to improve. G/L with those implied odds...... You will win a small pot and Ill be getting your stack..
    • shanshichi
      shanshichi
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.04.2009 Posts: 378
      Thank you guys , for your replies .

      Your advices really cleared my head :f_biggrin: !
    • conall88
      conall88
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2009 Posts: 1,715
      I'm not familiar with the call 20 rule, but its probably what i'm using! :) .

      they must have 20 times the raise size for me to continue in the pot. I must have good implied odds, not just in that they have a stack big enough to warrent the call from this alone, but also that they are prone to stacking off when I hit.
    • Wurble
      Wurble
      Silver
      Joined: 04.04.2009 Posts: 456
      I use call 20 rule from any position with pp's and small pockets are my most profitable hands after AA\KK.

      I agree that against certain players it's not a good play but those players are very few and far between at the micro's - If you stick to call20 irrespective of opponent or position you will make enough when you hit your set to cover the times you don't or don't get paid off.

      As Pzhon has already said, you protect yourself from this play by raising a wide range of hands that you will not go broke with and if you're using the SHC then you will already be doing this.