Too aggressive on low limits (NL2) a detriment?

    • Inorien
      Inorien
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.03.2012 Posts: 15
      Hallo

      I've been playing NL2 for the last couple of days - have done about 1500 hands now. Over the last hour and a half I've been playing on a single table and I'm running into problems. My VPIP for tonight is 11 and my PFR at 5, across 119 hands. I've been getting some fairly horrible hands! I've also had situations where I've had a nice hand (AJs) and some maniac will raise or all-in at just the wrong moment. Still, I'm patient about it.

      Now, the reason for this thread. I find that on the rare occasion I do get a good hand and raise it preflop, following the rule of preflop raises of 4BB+1BB/pot-entry, which on NL2 for most raises is about $0.08 - $0.10. The moment I put this amount of money down on a good hand, everyone folds. I have had one situation all evening in which I had AKo, raised, someone actually called it, and they proceeded to beat me up with a 95o. I was fortunately able to control the pot and not lose too much.

      Normally I would not worry too much about this. Having a table in which people fold so readily opens up wide opportunity for blind-stealing. However, it also makes me appear a loose player, and I don't want people holding on tightly when I'm trying to force them off the pot.

      So the question is this. Should I stick to the 4BB+1BB/pot-entry raise rule on low-limits, or play less aggressively?
      If I stick to the above rule, 99% of the time everyone folds and I end up with blinds. Again, this wouldn't normally be a problem, but I'm avoiding bluffing for the time being. This is because I just don't have powerful enough hands to warrant it.
      The problem that is arising is that I'm bleeding too much money on blinds and ending up in the red for most sessions. Also, what often happens (as luck would have it) when I get a good hand even worth calling is that someone will make a silly bet (25BBs preflop) and force me out.
      Am I just playing too tightly?

      Any help would be much appreciated.
      -Ino

      EDIT:
      It has also occurred multiple times that I get dealt AA/KK/QQ/JJ while BB, and everyone folds so I just get the blinds with no action taken. Not funny, Poker770!
  • 7 replies
    • metza
      metza
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.01.2012 Posts: 2,220
      Originally posted by Inorien
      Hallo

      I've been playing NL2 for the last couple of days - have done about 1500 hands now.
      1500 hands is too small to tell anything from.

      Anyway, you say "I have had one situation all evening in which I had AKo, raised, someone actually called it, and they proceeded to beat me up with a 95o. I was fortunately able to control the pot and not lose too much."but that when you raise they just fold all the time. obviously if they call 95o they aren't folding all the time. Probably you are just getting unlucky in that for the 1500 hands you played, when you had it whatever bizarre processes inspire a fish to call or fold were not in your favour.
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,907
      Originally posted by Inorien
      Now, the reason for this thread. I find that on the rare occasion I do get a good hand and raise it preflop, following the rule of preflop raises of 4BB+1BB/pot-entry, which on NL2 for most raises is about $0.08 - $0.10. The moment I put this amount of money down on a good hand, everyone folds. I have had one situation all evening in which I had AKo, raised, someone actually called it, and they proceeded to beat me up with a 95o. I was fortunately able to control the pot and not lose too much.

      It has also occurred multiple times that I get dealt AA/KK/QQ/JJ while BB, and everyone folds so I just get the blinds with no action taken. Not funny, Poker770!
      Yeah, I play on William Hill, so same player pool, but I play NL 4 / 5.

      The regs on iPoker are VERY good at folding. It is very hard to get an entire stack, unless it is a shorty that shoved.

      But read again the section of your post that I marked in bold.
      So how do you use that to your advantage?
      If you normally open-raise AJo minimum from MP, widen it to ATo.
      Even A9o if you can get away w/ it.

      If you get 3Bet opening the weaker hands, then just fold.

      If you do decide to open the weaker hands, then perhaps open-raise what the other people at your table do.

      Open-raising 3BB from UTG, MP & SB and 2.5 from CO and 2 from BB is common. (+ 1 for each limper). If other players at your tables are doing that, then you can too -- and save yourself a BB everytime you have to fold.

      You can't just bet 4BB w/ good hands and 3 w/ weaker or they'll catch on rather quickly. You'll hear people say they won't notice at NL 2, but I think they do. (note: I am a tad paranoid I think)

      Also, I don't know if this is standard practice, but I tighten up vs limpers -- so If I'm opening 45% from CO, then I ramp that down to about 24% or so.
      I should ask a coach about that.

      As you your original question, you CAN be too aggressive, but that usually takes the form of CBetting both Flop and Turn w/ less than adequate hands.

      Peace,
      --VS
    • metza
      metza
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.01.2012 Posts: 2,220
      Originally posted by VorpalF2F
      Also, I don't know if this is standard practice, but I tighten up vs limpers -- so If I'm opening 45% from CO, then I ramp that down to about 24% or so.
      I should ask a coach about that.
      --VS
      In my unprofessional opinion 45% is very wide from CO unless BTN is a major nit and SB/BB either fold all the time too, or they call often and check/fold or mega-stations that you can valuetown the crap out of. My default CO open is about 27%.

      I don't think you should tighten up vs limpers (but I also don't think you should raise 45% vs them). Generally I loosen up vs limpers. At the very least raise the same range. This is because most limpers will check/fold when they miss the flop, so we can even profitably raise+cbet some rather weak hands on the CO.

      I agree with you on the "people don't notice" thing, even NL2 regs notice IMO. But fish at any stakes don't notice. I mean rec players not bad regs. I raised 8bb with AQ yesterday and still got called by 32o (which sadly won, and stacked me turned 2pair vs my TPTK+gutshot+nut FD) :facepalm: I think often 10bb+ pre (as an open, as a 3bet you can sometimes get them to put in 25bb+) is definitely pushing it and the point where fish actually can start folding, though each one is different and you gotta find their limits.
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,907
      Originally posted by metza
      Originally posted by VorpalF2F
      Also, I don't know if this is standard practice, but I tighten up vs limpers -- so If I'm opening 45% from CO, then I ramp that down to about 24% or so.
      I should ask a coach about that.
      --VS
      In my unprofessional opinion 45% is very wide from CO unless BTN is a major nit and SB/BB either fold all the time too, or they call often and check/fold or mega-stations that you can valuetown the crap out of. My default CO open is about 27%.
      I guessed :)
      This is my "official" opening range:
      22+,A2s+,K7s+,Q8s+,J7s+,T7s+,96s+,85s+,75s+,65s,54s,A9o+,K9o+,Q9o+,J9o+,T9o,98o

      According to Equilab it is only 32%

      If you compare it to the Equilab standard SH Open-raising range it is a bit tighter offsuit, and a bit looser suited.

      Because I adjust for who is in the blinds, I don't always open this wide (for example, if I'm facing limpers), and occasionally wider if as you say there are nits behind me.

      According to HM2 on my current site (45K hands) I'm playing 21/20 from CO
      FWIW, I 3Bet 5.4% in CO, 6.78 overall.

      Just out of curiosity, how do you handle the ones the limp/call shove flop?
      These are usually short stacks.

      Two scenarios are common:
      Limp/shove
      Limp/call shove flop -- in or out of position.

      Yes, I do see a fair number of limp folds, and a fair number of limp/call/donk lines fold to a 3Bet on the flop.

      Even so, I like to have some muscle in my hand when I take on these shorties.

      Peace,
      --VS
    • metza
      metza
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.01.2012 Posts: 2,220
      Hm that's a good question with the limp call/shove flop. I don't see many of them. You mean they donkbet shove the flop? Basically I just try to estimate their range and call if I think I am priced in, check it in Flopzilla/Equilab after the session if I feel like I fucked up. Often I figure I will be priced in with stuff like AK on QJx type stuff. Usually the first time they will get away with it looser, just cause you have no info. But yeah not too many times I've seen this line.

      Preflop limp/shove if its just once then usually I will let them away with it and hope they had QQ+ like they often do (recently I've had shorstacker limp shove QQ very annoyingly when I had JJ). If they are abusing it, I generally call with the same range I would 3bet/call vs the shortstacker, maybe a little wider.
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,907
      Originally posted by metza
      Hm that's a good question with the limp call/shove flop. I don't see many of them. You mean they donkbet shove the flop? Basically I just try to estimate their range and call if I think I am priced in, check it in Flopzilla/Equilab after the session if I feel like I fucked up. Often I figure I will be priced in with stuff like AK on QJx type stuff. Usually the first time they will get away with it looser, just cause you have no info. But yeah not too many times I've seen this line.

      Preflop limp/shove if its just once then usually I will let them away with it and hope they had QQ+ like they often do (recently I've had shorstacker limp shove QQ very annoyingly when I had JJ). If they are abusing it, I generally call with the same range I would 3bet/call vs the shortstacker, maybe a little wider.
      I have a colour code just for short stackers that 3Bet shove or limp/call/shove
      They seem to be common on iPoker speed.
      Even before they do it to me, I can now tell when they have this tendency:
        short stack (20-30 BB)
        3Bet > 12%
        >20 vpip
        high AF

      Even if they haven't done it to me, they're the type.
      Also, they tend to do this in the blinds vs BU/CO raises -- since I open wider from those two -- another reason I think that they notice.

      So I try to exploit this. AJ+, 99+ unless I have a note that he does this as a bluff.

      Oh -- and one other thing:
      If they have a short-stack and I have a hand, I'll put 'em all in pre.
      This would be 99-JJ, AJ-AQ and just call w/ the real power.

      I don't know if it makes sense -- but it seems to.
      You either win pre, or have a flip.

      Cheers,
      --VS
    • patszerdonk
      patszerdonk
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.05.2011 Posts: 834
      preflop limp-call-shove flop is easy. Just take notes for first time they do that. And adjust