are pot odds irrelevant in full ring games?

    • jimmertron
      jimmertron
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.08.2011 Posts: 15
      just asking as a part time player, but are pot odds totally different in full ring games compared to say HU? in a FR game most of your outs could already be in the muck as you sweat out your big shove flush draw ?(
  • 8 replies
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,915
      Hi, jimmertron...

      As you can see, I moved your post to a forum where it will likely get more responses...

      Pot odds are fairly important at any time.

      On the flop, for example, you hold an open-ended straight draw.

      If villain bets small -- say slightly less than half pot, you can call with your hand, because you will make more on the times you hit than the total of the times you don't.

      If villain bets big -- like full pot-size -- you cannot call. You will not make enough on the times you win to make up for the times you lose.

      Have look at this article: Mathematics of Poker: Odds and Outs which explains it in much more detail.

      One other thing:
      "Implied odds" is used when we assume that if we hit, we will get even more that what is now in the pot. Be wary of making loose calls on the assumption that villain will put more money in, unless you have some indication that villain is actually capable of putting that money in.

      Best of luck,
      --VS
    • PriscoInline
      PriscoInline
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.05.2012 Posts: 326
      Your outs could all be in the bottom of the deck, on one of the mucked cards, or on the card burnt by the dealer. Who knows? You cannot make any guesses on those. You may discount some outs depending on the ranges you put your opponents, but it cannot make any difference on your plays if the cards you need were mucked preflop, are alive in the deck, or burned, since you cannot know that.

      Bottom line, it does not make a difference if your outs were mucked preflop by someone.

      You should play differently on a full ring game than on a HU game, because of many factors like other players still left to act, more implied odds, and other things, but the mucked cards is not one.

      I hope I understood your question and was able to answer it.
      Good luck at the tables!
    • metza
      metza
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.01.2012 Posts: 2,220
      Pot odds are irrelevant in every game, that shits for nerds, clicking buttons ftw :coolface:

      But the reason why it doesn't matter if your outs might also be in other people's hands/muck pile and therefore less likely to come, is that there might be other cards in other hands/muck pile and therefore more likely for your outs to come. Since you can't know, and it works either way, there's no point worrying about it.

      However, a concept that's kinda similar is blockers, where you hold a card so you know its less likely your opponent has a hand that involves that card, so for example if the flop is Kc9s8h, you have 9d8d, opponent just called preflop and after you bet they raised you, you know they are very unlikely to have a set since they would have 3bet KK preflop, and since you hold 9d8d there is only 1 combo of 88 and 1 of 99, as opposed to if you hold AK, then there is 3 combos of 88 and 3 combos of 99 possible. Meaning if you hold 98 on K98 in this scenario and are raised, your opponent is only 1/3 as likely to have a set as if you hold AK.
    • Lazza61
      Lazza61
      Headadmin
      Headadmin
      Joined: 23.03.2011 Posts: 9,245
      Also you must consider "Reverse Implied Odds" if you are not drawing to the stone cold nuts.

      For instance, you hold 79o on 8TA with 2 clubs. You opponent leads into you post flop with a half pot bet.

      You have the raw pot odds to call and try to hit your hand, but it is dangerous to use Implied odds. This is where you need to discount outs. Here you need to discount Js because they could give you opponent a higher straight. You also wouldn't like to see a 6c. So you only have 3 outs to the nuts.

      Judgement and hand reading become so important here because hitting your non nut str8 or having the flush card complete doesn't necessarily mean that your hand is not best.

      He may only have paired his A. He may have air. He may hold the same hand as you.

      Being able to put your opponents on a hand range and knowing what your opponent's' tendencies are so important and so hard to master.

      Also remember Poker is a strategic game of imperfect information.

      Take the example of chess or backgammon. These are strategic games of perfect information. You don't need any extra information to actually play your opponent's game for them. Everything is visible to both players.

      Sorry, I've slipped a bit of topic

      I'll go now

      Bye
    • Itsnevereasy
      Itsnevereasy
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.08.2010 Posts: 381
      since you cannot know that.



      +1
    • UPAY4DINNER
      UPAY4DINNER
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.09.2009 Posts: 21,926
      Thanks guys :)
    • TinoLaan
      TinoLaan
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.10.2011 Posts: 6,411
      Originally posted by PriscoInline
      Your outs could all be in the bottom of the deck, on one of the mucked cards, or on the card burnt by the dealer. Who knows? You cannot make any guesses on those. You may discount some outs depending on the ranges you put your opponents, but it cannot make any difference on your plays if the cards you need were mucked preflop, are alive in the deck, or burned, since you cannot know that.
      This 100%.

      You can only use information that you actually know. If someone mucks their hand pre flop, they could have 32 of spades, meaning you have two less outs for your flush draw for example. However he could also have 32 of hearts, meaning you have a higher chance of hitting your flush draw.

      It all evens out in the end. So your chances of hitting the flush - on average - are still 9/47.
    • Walshnm
      Walshnm
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2008 Posts: 198
      I would also add...

      Download Pokerstrategy.com Equilab for more information on ranges/ starting hands/ equity calculator.

      This comes with a host of starting hand ranges created by various online poker websites and can be a good way to adjust to different formats of poker (6-max/ Full ring/ Tight/ Loose/ Standard).