Pushing all-in after multiple limps.

    • Glopslart
      Glopslart
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.05.2008 Posts: 331
      Here is a familiar scenario on i-poker full ring SNGs at microstakes levels.

      We are at the start of the tournament, with blinds 10/20, starting stack 1500.

      One after another, MOST of the players limp in. Then, some bold fellow sparks up and shoves all-in preflop. This is usually the BU, SB or BB.

      Usually, everybody folds, and the attacker takes the limpers' chips.

      Sometimes, there is a caller, or more than one. When the hands are turned over they can be pretty random. I have seen situations where it is plain that the shover pushed ATC, and that the caller or callers had limped with ATC and thought it right to call nevertheless!

      What is the view of the community and of the coaches on this scenario?

      If you have limped, when do you call the shover, if ever?
      And does this mean that we should all limp less, even at 10/20, if we know there are late position shovers lurking out there?


      Should you ever BE the shover?

      Remember, most of the time, everybody folds! But on the other hand, you are putting your tournament life on the line from hand 1 or hand 2!
  • 10 replies
    • PriscoInline
      PriscoInline
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.05.2012 Posts: 326
      I'm no expert, probably not even a notable tournament player, but I'll give my toughts anyway.
      The ammount you win long term with a shove like that is almost never positive. Even with multiple limpers, at microstakes there are many players that only play preflop by limping, and they love to open limp at early position with monsters.

      I'll take an example from Harrington on Hold'em to show the expected EV in a somewhat similar situation:



      First hand of a 10-man tournament, you're UTG and have queens. Your stack is 1000 chips and blinds are 5/10. You go all in.

      The chances of beeing dealt aces or kings is 1 in 110. Let's round it up to 1 in 100.

      That makes 1% of chance of each player after you having Aces or Kings.

      Let's suppose noone will call you with less than Queens.

      With other 9 players left to act, that would make a 9% chance of someone having you beat. Let's round it up to 10%.

      So you win the blinds uncontested 90% of the times.

      On the 10% of the times you are called and is the underdog, you will suck out 2% of the times.

      So, 90% of the blinds, 15 chips, is 13.5. 2% of the times you suck out on a 1015 pot, wich rounds up to 20 chips. 8% of the times you lose 1000 chips, which makes -80 chips on average.

      13.5 + 20 - 80 = -46.5 chips. You lose 3 times the value of the pot you tried to win.



      Unless it's a freeroll of some sort, most of the times the shover will have a monster, even at micros, and is doing a very bad play. We can change the variables, but on most realistic cases, this type of play is a losing one.

      If players are pushing loose, then it's an even worse play. What's the point of risking your tournament so early?

      If you want to take advantage of those type of players, just call the push with your monsters. At long term, you will be winning, and they will be losing big. Even if you push Aces in those situations, I doubt you would make more chips than by raising normally. Be glad people do this, they are just giving money away.

      Please someone elucidate me in case I'm wrong.

      Good luck.
    • Glopslart
      Glopslart
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.05.2008 Posts: 331
      Priscoinline, TY for your comment.

      The Harrington extract is interesting, but not conclusive, because on i-poker the type of shove which caught my attention is executed only AFTER multiple limps - i.e. not an open-shove.

      Yes, some people limp early with monsters, but normally a limp is a sign of a hand that needs help to hold up, else there would have been a raise.

      The shove in this situation 'feels' wrong to me, but I put this thread out to see what the pros and hotshots among us think.
    • Gavron23
      Gavron23
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.05.2010 Posts: 2,863
      Hi,

      Openshoving queens 75bb deep is bad, but not for the reason that you will only get called by worse, on the contrary, I am quite sure on micros and even midstakes people will call with more than QQ +.
      It is bad because you lose a lot of value compared to when you raise for example 3x + 1x for each limper, and you play postflop when they flat their weaker holdings.
    • Glopslart
      Glopslart
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.05.2008 Posts: 331
      Gavron, TY, and I agree, but this still does not address my i-poker SNG situation - a shove from late, in reply to multiple limps.
    • akrammon
      akrammon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.05.2009 Posts: 3,142
      Originally posted by Glopslart
      Gavron, TY, and I agree, but this still does not address my i-poker SNG situation - a shove from late, in reply to multiple limps.
      In short, you should never limp/call in a situation like this. If you have a strong enough hand to call the shove you should've made a raise.

      You should only limp speculative hands - hands that are not good alone, but they have a small % of improving into something very strong. Such as: pocket pairs, they can improve into three-of-a-kind, a very well disguised, strong hand, with which you can often double up against worse hands. Other (weaker) examples are Axs and suited connectors.

      You need at least 55% against his range to be able to limp/call an allin, and you rarely have that. Not to mention that it is very hard to put crazy people on a range on the microstakes (in situations like this). I'd say that this is usually a hand they consider to be good but they are afraid to play (this can be AK, JJ, but for looser people it can be any pocket, Ato+, a8s+, QTo, w/e).

      Long story short: don't call.
    • Glopslart
      Glopslart
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.05.2008 Posts: 331
      Coach Akrammon, everybody, TY again.

      And now: it's confession time! :f_wink:
      The other night, something got into me in the first hand of a 50+10 Darwin on i-poker.

      I was in the BB with AQo.

      There were multiple limps. I decided to shove for the hell of it, just to see what it felt like, and to see what would happen next.

      [You can tell I don't do this for a living.]

      It actually felt pretty darned good, that is until I harvested TWO callers from the multiple limpers! OMG!!!

      One candidate turned over 77. The other candidate turned over Q4o !!!!
      The 77 guy I can understand, but it chills the blood to realise that there are people out there who will limp with Q4o, let alone call an all-in with it.

      In the present situation I was a dog, because one of 'my' Queens was out.

      [I have just looked this up on the Hendon Mob Poker Calculator. My equity was 37.4%; 77 had 54.73%, while the drunk/mentally challenged third party had 7.85%.]

      I was lucky and hit an ace. I tripled up, bitched the table and came 1st. Of course the result does not justify the decision, but it is food for thought.

      Would I do it again? Well, perhaps ....... :f_biggrin:
    • fritsprive
      fritsprive
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.08.2013 Posts: 17
      Akrammon, i absolutely agree with you but there is this other thing.

      In my experience too many times I have a strong hand like QQ on MP, raise 3+1 limper =4 times BB and what the hell.....5 callers. And suddenly your QQ is only a degenerate pair in the lottery of posible flush and street draws that at least 1 of those 5 callers will see on the flop, not to mention the lonely A that hits. And boom, lost 4BB in 2 seconds.
      So, the first let's say 5-10 hands of a tournament with those cheap blinds i'm scared as hell to make pfr's, because a pfr hardly eliminates limpers at that stage.
      With QQ I limp in as well and if the flop isn't scary, then I bet.

      Am i wrong, in the long run pfr still is the better play? Thanks, frits
    • Madavaster1
      Madavaster1
      Global
      Joined: 20.09.2012 Posts: 1,147
      So because of other people's poor play you downgraded your own game and started limping queens. That's not the way to progress in the game of poker :)
    • akrammon
      akrammon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.05.2009 Posts: 3,142
      fritsprive:

      If we assume that noone limp/folds, and noone folds behind us (after our pfr) who would limp, then the difference between limping and raising is:
      - You limp. You bet safe boards, when you are likely ahead.
      - You raise. You bet safe boards, when you are likely ahead (and give up against multiple opponents when an A hits). However, in this scenario you made the underdogs pay for your hand preflop, where they have made a mistake.
      True, the pot is bigger, but then again most boards are safe for QQ - except for K or A high, or extremely wet boards (such as 89Tss for example). So, when you bet, you have an easier time making them pay more.
    • Madavaster1
      Madavaster1
      Global
      Joined: 20.09.2012 Posts: 1,147
      And there is nothing wrong in giving up a particularly bad flop facing much action even if we were preflop aggressor. Parting ways even with nicely looking cards is part of this game. It's just something one has to learn rather than look for a workaround like shoving them preflop all the time.