Stealing range Of villain

    • Evante
      Evante
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.12.2009 Posts: 833
      So have a reg which have a PFR of 18% but tot steal from CO of 38%.

      So basically his range when he is given a chance to steal is 38%(which is huge) or 18%?


      And I have a HUD stats of 4bet range % but isnt it abit unreliable since different position definitely have different 4bet range %?

      Sorry if my english is bad.
  • 4 replies
    • Walshnm
      Walshnm
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2008 Posts: 198
      The reason the more commonly used "Steal %" (vs. CO specific) is the average of a steal from all positions (CO/BTN/SB) is because this range is usually similar from all three positions.

      Is your CO range very different from your BTN range?

      The fact that his steal from CO is higher is probably just a statistical anomaly and you should probably adjust as though steal was 18-20%.

      How many hands do you have on him? I would be interested to see if after more hands my theory roves correct. :D
    • metza
      metza
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.01.2012 Posts: 2,220
      Always good to try help but above post is totally wrong. Its not a statistical anomaly, and his range (based on HUD stats) is 38% not 18% (38% is very wide for CO so you should be able to 3bet bluff him a lot and get many folds). Nor is steal% when specified for CO an average of CO/BTN/SB. If you tick position CO in the HUD Editor, it gives you CO only, not an average.

      In general PFR is not very good for defining ranges. For example, he will raise 88 from CO, but if MP raises, he just calls 88 and this doesn't count for PFR even though its in his open raising range.
      I have PFR in my HUD but only to see when someone is way out of line overall or super nitty overall.

      RFI (Raise First In) is a much better stat to assess peoples ranges when they raise first in (seems pretty obvious but some people still rely on PFR), I put EP,MP,CO,BTN,SB RFI in my HUD and find it very useful, as you learn much more than VPIP/PFR.

      Yes, 4bet% is unreliable without positions. But takes so so many hands to get reliable positional 4bet% stats. Better to just go off gameflow, range guesses which are usually pretty decent and what you've seen them 4bet before (notes).
    • Walshnm
      Walshnm
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2008 Posts: 198
      Originally posted by metza
      Always good to try help but above post is totally wrong. Its not a statistical anomaly, and his range (based on HUD stats) is 38% not 18% (38% is very wide for CO so you should be able to 3bet bluff him a lot and get many folds). Nor is steal% when specified for CO an average of CO/BTN/SB. If you tick position CO in the HUD Editor, it gives you CO only, not an average.

      In general PFR is not very good for defining ranges. For example, he will raise 88 from CO, but if MP raises, he just calls 88 and this doesn't count for PFR even though its in his open raising range.
      I have PFR in my HUD but only to see when someone is way out of line overall or super nitty overall.

      RFI (Raise First In) is a much better stat to assess peoples ranges when they raise first in (seems pretty obvious but some people still rely on PFR), I put EP,MP,CO,BTN,SB RFI in my HUD and find it very useful, as you learn much more than VPIP/PFR.

      Yes, 4bet% is unreliable without positions. But takes so so many hands to get reliable positional 4bet% stats. Better to just go off gameflow, range guesses which are usually pretty decent and what you've seen them 4bet before (notes).
      I think you need to read my post again - I never said that "CO STEAL %" was incorrect/anomaly as a stat for "CO STEAL %" nor did I suggest that if you tick "CO Steal %" it shows you anything other than "CO STEAL %" - my argument was that if you are making decisions on how to respond to this opponent's play you should be making that decision based on the 18% (Roughly) and that I think with more hands you would find that the BTN steal % was in fact higher than the CO steal % ( SAMPLE ANOMALY). Are you trying to convince us that a players steal range from the CO will be wider than their steal range from the BTN?

      Just to be clear I wrote - "The reason the more commonly used "Steal %" (vs. CO specific) is the average of a steal from all positions (CO/BTN/SB) is because this range is usually similar from all three positions."

      To Clarify Again - "STEAL %" (NOT CO STEAL %) = The average of steals from steal positions = 18% (Of which from the CO = 38%)

      P.S. I misread the original post to read "Steal of 18% but CO Steal of 38%" Here in lies the confusion :D IGNORE ME!! Hahahaha
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,956
      Originally posted by Evante
      So have a reg which have a PFR of 18% but tot steal from CO of 38%.

      So basically his range when he is given a chance to steal is 38%(which is huge) or 18%?


      And I have a HUD stats of 4bet range % but isnt it abit unreliable since different position definitely have different 4bet range %?

      Sorry if my english is bad.
        I agree with metza who said to put RFI by position in HUD. Besides letting you know how often villain raises first in by position, it gives you a clue to how positionally-aware villain is. If he is NOT positionally aware, you can infer that his skills are weak in other areas
        PFR also includes 3Bets, so an 18% PFR with a 38% Steal from CO seems to indicate that he is v tight elsewhere. How often does he resteal?
        If I want to check 4Bet stats, I use the popup which has how many hands in brackets. Even after 500 hands there may only be 10 or so 4Bets, so stats are dodgy.

      Best of luck,
      --VS