Problems coaching

    • marcepoker17
      marcepoker17
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.06.2011 Posts: 161
      Hi everyone,

      hope this is the right place to post this question..

      I began to coach a player that contacted me and asked me while I was playing if I was available to coach him!

      I have a real big problem with him, and I never found this with friends I have preaviously been coaching, he simply doesn't want to do the things I'm teaching him, even the basics!

      I'll explain better: for example I did a lesson on the starting hands for SITs(the early stage) and I sent him the charts, so after doing the lesson on them he could study them and even keep them in front of him while playing (as I advised him).

      Altrought I told him that those charts are just a guide and that we will adjust them better in the next lesson, I also told him to try to stick with them at the beginning, so he could learn them properly first, because his play is just very loose passive since the beginning of any game he's playing (obviusly even more for a SIT).

      The next lesson his first question was about a hand he played:

      SIT 9max, first hand, 1500$ stack, level 10/20.

      UTG AcTh

      he limps in, call BU raise 3x. Flop Q48 check call BU c-bet half pot, check call BU half pot turn 5 and min donk bet (20$out of 400$pot) river K folding to opp raise.

      Well beside the whole play, when I ask him why did you play ATo UTG when it doesn't seem to me there is anything close on the chart, his reply is: I can't follow for real those charts, I get bored, if I don't even play ATo what should I play..?!

      I mean, he's loosing 3000$ in 14 months (5000games), he seems to understand that he is playing bad and is not happy about the results. But he doesn't want to change his starting hands, he doesn't want to follow BM, he's playing sit from 2$ to 13$ with a BR between 50/100$.

      Imo in this way he will never get better, and for sure he will never be a winner.

      I don't know if I should just keep coaching, if I should stick on the importance of BM concept and a decent range of starting hands concept, if I shoud go on or just stop it.

      If anybody was in a similar situation and found a solution, or even something that can help, please let me know. Anyway good advice is always well accepted! :)

      Thank you

      Marce
  • 20 replies
    • Alan883
      Alan883
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.12.2008 Posts: 1,941
      hello marcepoker17,

      i moved your thread. I think you will get better answers here. I hope you don't mind :f_cool: .

      Its an interesting thing what you are saying. This is the nightmare for every teacher/coach when their students don't want to listen to them. Of course there can be many reasons why this is happening.

      On the one hand your student wants to improve because he has a coach on the other side he doesn't want to change himself. I think there is no simple answer to that but we can find together possible reasons.

      I think it is also important what relationship you have with student for further discussion:
      -Is student your friend?
      -Did he decide to hire you as a coach?
      -Does he pay for your services?
      -Does he have any problems with gambling from the past?
      -What does he want to achieve with poker?

      I hope we will discuss that in depth and that we will hear some other experiences and advises as well.
    • Schnitzelfisch
      Schnitzelfisch
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.11.2008 Posts: 4,952
      Hey,

      I personally deal with this issue by only coaching people who REALLY want to improve. There are so many people out there seeking advice, we might as well share it with people who will actually apply it and not just waste our time.

      In your place, I would only focus on coaching people who are willing to take action and apply the action steps that you give them. If they're not ready for that, don't coach them, but don't close any doors as they might be ready for it in the future.

      -SF
    • marcepoker17
      marcepoker17
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.06.2011 Posts: 161
      Hi Alan,

      I obviosly don't mind, thank you for moving it in here! :)

      I'm sure there are many reasons for a student that is not listening, and it'd be interesting to try to find out why, but for us! I mean, I'm not a mental coach, and as long it's not a reason linked with my teaching, I'm not sure it is my "job" to try to find out why he is not listening, or am I wrong?

      Anyway I really tried to make him understand the concepts, and not just giving him information that he can't process, so I really think it's a problem that he has with understanding the concepts.

      To answer to your questions:

      He's not a friend.

      He contacted me while I was playing and asked me if I was avaliable.

      We agreed on 10 lessons with payment every 5. (I know that's not the right way but I always did like this previously with friends and I didn't think about changing it, now I simply don't wanna change what I have already agreed!)

      I don't know if before he had gambling problems, but for me if you are loosing 3K in a year and you seem desperate, means you have already some kind of problem.. :f_confused:

      About the last question, I can say what he told me when I asked the same question: "I just don't wanna keep loosing and have a profit of 200/400$ in 2/3 month"

      A reply that I never heard before, and that for sure didn't really want to hear..

      Thank you very much for your help
    • marcepoker17
      marcepoker17
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.06.2011 Posts: 161
      Hi Schnitzelfisch,

      Thank you for your answer.

      I completly agree with you and with your way of thinking, and after my first conversation with him I didn't want to continue.

      Then I spoke with a friend of mine that does coaching and because this was my first experience coaching somebody I didn't know, he advised me to take it as an experience and try to do the best job I could.

      I don't have other students at the moment and I don't have any requests, so I really agree with you, but I see the point of the friend of mine, telling me to just gain experience out of it.

      The main problem imo is that if he just going to keep playing his way, obviously he'll keep loosing, and following his thinking process is gonna belive that the coaching is not working (as it's not)
      So other then not seeing results, I could not get paid, he would complain, and I'm not gonna have any pubblicity and/or recomendations for my next students! X(

      Thank you again for you time.
    • Alan883
      Alan883
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.12.2008 Posts: 1,941
      You are very welcome.

      Well i don't know if it is your job to find out why he doesn't listen to you. Maybe that would be very good to know for you. That could help you become even better coach in future.

      I think i am not competent to tell you my advises regarding payment. This is your business decision and if you believe in it it is the best to stick with it. I had coaching with our respectful member and of course i payed everything in advance. i had also 10 lessons.

      How many lessons you already had with him? I really hope everything will sort out and please keep us updated.

      So other then not seeing results, I could not get paid, he would complain, and I'm not gonna have any pubblicity and/or recomendations for my next students! frown


      Every student can be a source of a positive comment or negative one. But i think that you should not worry about negative comments form student who hire a coach and doesn't want to listen to him.

      Of course it is also very important that you analyse again your work and check if you did everything as you wanted and if you are satisfied with your performance with him. No matter how this story will end you will gain priceless experiences and this is something that count also isn't it?
    • marcepoker17
      marcepoker17
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.06.2011 Posts: 161
      Hi Alan,

      I gave him just 2 lessons, but we didn't do one because he didn't came! :O

      Anyway I agree, and I know what you mean, but I'm not worry for bad feedback, I'm just thinking that if he doesn't do what he should he will not win, if he doesn't win I might don't get pay, I waste my time, and I don't even get CV experience or publicity.

      About my coaching, it's sure there are many things I still have to learn and many other I could teach better, but here we are speaking about such basic concept that you can easily learn them from any books or poker sites.. I mean, BRM it's not a difficult concept and still he's asking every minutes why he can't play this or that..

      Bah, I remember when I was the student I was really try to do everything I was told, then I would ask and try to find my way, but I wasn't complaining what I was told to be "rules"(If I can't play 15€ mtt because I have 50€ in my BR I just don't play, and try to get a bigger BR so I will play the 15€ one day, if I shouldn't put 75bb in with 44 in a multyway pot at the early stage of a sit, I just fold ect ect..)

      Thank you again for your tips and I will keep updating! :]
    • Walshnm
      Walshnm
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2008 Posts: 198
      Just keep up the lessons - Keep getting paid - and tell him if he doesn't do as he's told he will be out of cash to pay for his lessons :D

      Tough one tho...

      Perhaps showing him some example graphs from your past could inspire him to change his ways? Or even comparing yours with his at the moment.

      GL GL GL
    • marcepoker17
      marcepoker17
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.06.2011 Posts: 161
      Hi Walshnm,

      thank you for the answer,

      yes, I will try to do that :D

      I did show him the graphs, but he keeps saying that he's just unlucky and that the problem is the opponents on micro limits are playing too bad to beat them and he is convinced he should play higher limits to be able to win.. (??? ?( lol)

      Btw I will just try to do the best I can..!

      Thank you again.
    • Alan883
      Alan883
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.12.2008 Posts: 1,941
      he is convinced he should play higher limits to be able to win


      oh...so he would like to play higher stakes where people respect his raises :f_cool: .

      Well if you will teach this guy how to become a winning players you will definitely have something to show in your CV for the future.

      good luck.
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,698
      he's paying you? then just take the money and let him know that he has himself to blame if he doesn't take your advice after paying you for it.

      if he doesn't pay you, don't waste your time and tell him to get lost. i really hate it when my friends ask me to help them with poker, i tell them time and again not to play out of their means (playing nl100 with <$1000), but they do it anyway. really frustrating and annoying
    • Kruppe
      Kruppe
      Black
      Joined: 20.02.2008 Posts: 2,145
      just tell him to play twice as many tables, and he won't be bored. problem solved.
    • Itsnevereasy
      Itsnevereasy
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.08.2010 Posts: 381
      Marce,

      In my experience you have several options.

      1) Say you coach him once a week. Set targets for his play in between your lessons, i.e. play 10% hands UTG, etc. If he doesn't accomplish your target, let him play another week until he does. Basically refuse to coach him until he listens.

      2) Tell him that you do not want to coach him because you don't feel like he's benefiting from your lessons. After he cries and says that he will do what you tell him, give him the last chance and stop if he doesn't change.

      3) If he doesn't believe you about the starting hand charts etc, tell him to ask someone he will listen to for sure - like KRANTZ who is doing an AMA on PS right now! AMA with Bet Raise Fold producer Jason Rosenkrantz

      Hope that helps...
    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,150
      I get bored, if I don't even play ATo what should I play..?!


      :D if he still does not know that it is possible - tell him to open more tables :)
    • marcepoker17
      marcepoker17
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.06.2011 Posts: 161
      Originally posted by Alan883
      he is convinced he should play higher limits to be able to win


      oh...so he would like to play higher stakes where people respect his raises :f_cool: .

      Well if you will teach this guy how to become a winning players you will definitely have something to show in your CV for the future.

      good luck.
      That's what he always say!

      :) That's true, the main event of coaching.. ;(

      Thank you
    • marcepoker17
      marcepoker17
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.06.2011 Posts: 161
      Originally posted by mbml
      he's paying you? then just take the money and let him know that he has himself to blame if he doesn't take your advice after paying you for it.

      if he doesn't pay you, don't waste your time and tell him to get lost. i really hate it when my friends ask me to help them with poker, i tell them time and again not to play out of their means (playing nl100 with <$1000), but they do it anyway. really frustrating and annoying
      Well, we actually agreed on a payment every 5 lessons, that's why I'm worring I'm wasting time! :(

      I think I will stop this now, so I just cut my losses!

      Yes, it's frustrating because it's so clear for you what's wrong and even when you explain it to them they still do the wrong thing! ;(

      Thank you for the advice!
    • marcepoker17
      marcepoker17
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.06.2011 Posts: 161
      Originally posted by Kruppe
      just tell him to play twice as many tables, and he won't be bored. problem solved.
      Hi Kruppe,

      I think as well that adding a table or 2 can help if you are bored, but the problem, imo, is that he doesn't get the point! If he's playing more tables with the same mentality he will just multiply his losses.

      Btw he's already playing 2/3 tables, sometimes differents formats and buy ins together and when I try to explain that first he should learn how to play one table and one format, his reply it's: "If not I get bored!"

      Isnt'it even more boring to loose 3K in 5K mtt (+ all the cash games that I don't know about)?

      ?(
    • marcepoker17
      marcepoker17
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.06.2011 Posts: 161
      Originally posted by Itsnevereasy
      Marce,

      In my experience you have several options.

      1) Say you coach him once a week. Set targets for his play in between your lessons, i.e. play 10% hands UTG, etc. If he doesn't accomplish your target, let him play another week until he does. Basically refuse to coach him until he listens.

      2) Tell him that you do not want to coach him because you don't feel like he's benefiting from your lessons. After he cries and says that he will do what you tell him, give him the last chance and stop if he doesn't change.

      3) If he doesn't believe you about the starting hand charts etc, tell him to ask someone he will listen to for sure - like KRANTZ who is doing an AMA on PS right now! AMA with Bet Raise Fold producer Jason Rosenkrantz

      Hope that helps...
      The first it's a great option that I never consider and I will try with my next student (if he has trouble to follow indications!)!

      Unfortunately it requires a student that doesn't lie to you.. This guy is telling me that he doesn't play over BR, but then on sharkscope I see it's not true, he say he plays tight folding TT early in a sit from UTG, but then same sit he goes broke same position same level with A6o. He doesn't have any tracker so I can't check him and even if I could I'm not sure I would, I mean that's not really teaching, looks more like parenting! :baby:

      The second is what I did already after he left me wait for him at the second lesson, he was sleaping-06:30PM and he sent me a text around 00:00 telling me he was sorry he just over slept!

      3) It's a good idea, I mean the charts are scanned from books, but that could help, always if this somebody he's willing to do it. Btw he doesn't speak English..

      Thank you very much for your post, was very interesting!
    • marcepoker17
      marcepoker17
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.06.2011 Posts: 161
      Originally posted by SPeedFANat1c
      I get bored, if I don't even play ATo what should I play..?!


      :D if he still does not know that it is possible - tell him to open more tables :)


      Originally posted by Kruppe
      just tell him to play twice as many tables, and he won't be bored. problem solved.


      Hi Kruppe,

      I think as well that adding a table or 2 can help if you are bored, but the problem, imo, is that he doesn't get the point! If he's playing more tables with the same mentality he will just multiply his losses.

      Btw he's already playing 2/3 tables, sometimes differents formats and buy ins together and when I try to explain that first he should learn how to play one table and one format, his reply it's: "If not I get bored!"

      Isnt'it even more boring to loose 3K in 5K mtt (+ all the cash games that I don't know about)?

      confused
    • Kruppe
      Kruppe
      Black
      Joined: 20.02.2008 Posts: 2,145
      the point isn't really to stop him from being bored. he might play a very similar amount of hands overall when 3-tabling as when 6-tabling. cause when 3-tabling he might play 30/15 or whatever, but 6-tabling he wouldn't have time to do that and would play 15/13 or something.... think about it
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