Multi-tabling 45-man Turbos

    • is0l8
      is0l8
      Basic
      Joined: 03.09.2013 Posts: 60
      Hi There,

      I've gradually gone from 4-tabling to 14 tabling.

      It seems my short-term results have become worse. Possibly a combination of a) run-bad and b) inefficient multi-tabling... With 4 tables I was a pretty frequent 1/2 /45 and now in the past 3 sets of 14 I haven't cashed at all.

      All I can address is b) as run-bad is run-bad.

      I think my problem is not being able to assign calling/shoving opponent's ranges and therefore make in-game incorrect calls. My feel for ICM is pretty good and when I go through my hand history I'm rarely making a mistake.

      So... is there anything I can do to improve my in-game, reality push/fold/calls when multi-tabling this amount?
  • 27 replies
    • is0l8
      is0l8
      Basic
      Joined: 03.09.2013 Posts: 60
      Anyone?..
    • Naidonis
      Naidonis
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.01.2013 Posts: 99
      I started to train ICM in "ICM Trainer" 30 minutes a day. I feel that my ICM feeling has improved a lot.
    • Lazza61
      Lazza61
      Headadmin
      Headadmin
      Joined: 23.03.2011 Posts: 9,151
      Maybe assign Hotkeys for your most used actions. Depending on which room you play at, the ability to assign hotkeys for frequent actions may be inbuilt into the software.

      If not, there's always Table Ninja.

      And as you say runbad is runbad, If you review your sessions and can't find any evidence that you have been making the incorrect ICM/Nash shove/calls, then it's probably just variance.
    • is0l8
      is0l8
      Basic
      Joined: 03.09.2013 Posts: 60
      Originally posted by Naidonis
      I started to train ICM in "ICM Trainer" 30 minutes a day. I feel that my ICM feeling has improved a lot.
      I've done this, and I think it got me going. But I think it's a bit too general.

      I sometimes even disagree with ICM trainer. I think the calling ranges assigned for opponents can often be very different to what the ranges are of most opponents in the $0.50 45 man turbos I play.... Also, I think it is for 9 MAN and not 45 MAN and this can affect the accuracy.

      Don't get me wrong, it's a great piece of software that helped me understand the fundamentals, but I think you can only get so much from it...

      Perhaps someone is able to explain how I can extract more value out of it?...
    • is0l8
      is0l8
      Basic
      Joined: 03.09.2013 Posts: 60
      Originally posted by Lazza61
      Maybe assign Hotkeys for your most used actions. Depending on which room you play at, the ability to assign hotkeys for frequent actions may be inbuilt into the software.

      If not, there's always Table Ninja.

      And as you say runbad is runbad, If you review your sessions and can't find any evidence that you have been making the incorrect ICM/Nash shove/calls, then it's probably just variance.
      I think I may be making opponent-specific mistakes. Due to distributing my attention across more tables, the calling/shoving ranges I assign may be very wrong?...

      I don't know how to translate my good assigning from 4 tabling to good assigning at more tables. Is there anything that can help me with this transition?

      Maybe more volume = quicker, less good decisions is an inevitable compromise I have to accept.

      I just wondered if there's anything out there, or something different I could be doing to lessen the seemingly dramatic difference...

      PS What does Table Ninja do?
    • Naidonis
      Naidonis
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.01.2013 Posts: 99
      Yeah of couse ranges differ for different kind of opponents. I think that there even is an article here at pokerstrategy that explains how to adjust your range against looser or tighter players.

      And yeah I agree on different ICM in 45mans, but what trainer have given me is the general feeling of ICM.
    • is0l8
      is0l8
      Basic
      Joined: 03.09.2013 Posts: 60
      Originally posted by Naidonis
      Yeah of couse ranges differ for different kind of opponents. I think that there even is an article here at pokerstrategy that explains how to adjust your range against looser or tighter players.

      And yeah I agree on different ICM in 45mans, but what trainer have given me is the general feeling of ICM.
      I'm confident at adjusting to loose and tight players' ranges. It's just that, when I play this many tables, and I'm in a spot where I could shove, I don't have that information and feel a bit lost...

      I've heard of HUD's... are there any stats that would help me here for assigning ranges?
    • Lazza61
      Lazza61
      Headadmin
      Headadmin
      Joined: 23.03.2011 Posts: 9,151
      1) Only use ICM/Nash at the final Table. Don't worry too much about trying to work your equity because you have a differing chance of finishing in 7 money positions, or 8th and 9th where you end up with no equity.

      2) Before open shoving, make a note of the stacksizes in the blinds. If there is a bigstack then only shove with the top of your range. Bigstacks seem to like defending their blinds, particularly in the turbos.

      3) ICM/Nash are unexploitable strategies and as such can not be exploited by players using it as well. So feel free to shove hands outside ICM/Nash ranges even from early position. In particular hands that can hit the flop hard like low SCs and even USCs. The advantage with those hands is that your cards are almost certain to be live against ICM and Nash ranges.

      Hope that helps
    • Naidonis
      Naidonis
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.01.2013 Posts: 99
      Originally posted by is0l8
      Originally posted by Naidonis
      Yeah of couse ranges differ for different kind of opponents. I think that there even is an article here at pokerstrategy that explains how to adjust your range against looser or tighter players.

      And yeah I agree on different ICM in 45mans, but what trainer have given me is the general feeling of ICM.
      I'm confident at adjusting to loose and tight players' ranges. It's just that, when I play this many tables, and I'm in a spot where I could shove, I don't have that information and feel a bit lost...

      I've heard of HUD's... are there any stats that would help me here for assigning ranges?
      Yeah I highly advise you to try HoldemManager2 or PokerTracker. Both of those have standart and editable huds, which can help you A LOT to asign players a range.
    • is0l8
      is0l8
      Basic
      Joined: 03.09.2013 Posts: 60
      What stats would I be focusing on in particular?
    • is0l8
      is0l8
      Basic
      Joined: 03.09.2013 Posts: 60
      Originally posted by Lazza61
      1) Only use ICM/Nash at the final Table. Don't worry too much about trying to work your equity because you have a differing chance of finishing in 7 money positions, or 8th and 9th where you end up with no equity.

      2) Before open shoving, make a note of the stacksizes in the blinds. If there is a bigstack then only shove with the top of your range. Bigstacks seem to like defending their blinds, particularly in the turbos.

      3) ICM/Nash are unexploitable strategies and as such can not be exploited by players using it as well. So feel free to shove hands outside ICM/Nash ranges even from early position. In particular hands that can hit the flop hard like low SCs and even USCs. The advantage with those hands is that your cards are almost certain to be live against ICM and Nash ranges.

      Hope that helps
      My basic approach is, with reference to ICM/Nash:

      Shove looser if opponent's are tight.
      Shove tighter if opponents are loose.
      Call looser if opponents are loose.
      Call tighter if opponents are tight.

      It's just kind of tough when you don't know whether they're loose or tight due to volume. I guess sticking to ICM/Nash is best in these circumstances and I appreciate the advice about stack sizes, I'll consider that too.
    • Lazza61
      Lazza61
      Headadmin
      Headadmin
      Joined: 23.03.2011 Posts: 9,151
      Originally posted by is0l8
      Originally posted by Naidonis
      Yeah of couse ranges differ for different kind of opponents. I think that there even is an article here at pokerstrategy that explains how to adjust your range against looser or tighter players.

      And yeah I agree on different ICM in 45mans, but what trainer have given me is the general feeling of ICM.
      I'm confident at adjusting to loose and tight players' ranges. It's just that, when I play this many tables, and I'm in a spot where I could shove, I don't have that information and feel a bit lost...

      I've heard of HUD's... are there any stats that would help me here for assigning ranges?
      Most definitely. VPiP will give you a % which you can almost put straight into Equilab to get a hand range.

      There are a heap of others as well but if your 14 tabling they will be very difficult to read.

      A better option may be to go back to 4 tabling for a while and start marking regs with a certain colour. Most of your difficult spots on the FT will come against regs. For instance I mark fish yellow and good regs red. I mark nits as green because I can go ahead and steal their blinds most of the time. Weak players are pink.
    • Lazza61
      Lazza61
      Headadmin
      Headadmin
      Joined: 23.03.2011 Posts: 9,151
      If I key in 25% VPiP into PokerStrategy's Equilab (free), I get this hand range.

      66+, A2s+, K6s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, A7o+, K9o+, QTo+, JTo

      It's a great tool for assigning ranges based on VPiP and it's available for free download.

      Equilab Download Page
    • is0l8
      is0l8
      Basic
      Joined: 03.09.2013 Posts: 60
      Originally posted by Lazza61
      If I key in 25% VPiP into PokerStrategy's Equilab (free), I get this hand range.

      66+, A2s+, K6s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, A7o+, K9o+, QTo+, JTo

      It's a great tool for assigning ranges based on VPiP and it's available for free download.

      Equilab Download Page
      I use equilab like you say, and it's very useful post game

      However in game:

      Is there anything better than vpip for assigning these ranges?

      I know many regs. with an AVERAGE vpip of <10. However, when it comes down to the 'big finale' they loosen up considerably.

      So perhaps I need TWO phase vpip measurements depending on the stage of the tourney/their chip stack.

      So, I'm either looking to improve the reliability of vpip or find another stat that gives me a better idea of their call/shove range...

      How do I do this?....
    • TinoLaan
      TinoLaan
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.10.2011 Posts: 6,411
      Originally posted by Lazza61
      If I key in 25% VPiP into PokerStrategy's Equilab (free), I get this hand range.

      66+, A2s+, K6s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, A7o+, K9o+, QTo+, JTo

      It's a great tool for assigning ranges based on VPiP and it's available for free download.

      Equilab Download Page
      Solid advice, Equilab is the nuts :f_thumbsup:

      While this is true, there is one flaw in simply entering a VIP number and going with that. If you put in 25%, it will simply take the top 25% of hands. However, it is quite likely that an opponent may, for example, not play A7o, but instead plays all pocket pairs down to 22.

      It's important to always double check if the range is good/realistic, rather than just assuming it will be correct.
    • Lazza61
      Lazza61
      Headadmin
      Headadmin
      Joined: 23.03.2011 Posts: 9,151
      Originally posted by is0l8
      Originally posted by Lazza61
      If I key in 25% VPiP into PokerStrategy's Equilab (free), I get this hand range.

      66+, A2s+, K6s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, A7o+, K9o+, QTo+, JTo

      It's a great tool for assigning ranges based on VPiP and it's available for free download.

      Equilab Download Page
      I use equilab like you say, and it's very useful post game

      However in game:

      Is there anything better than vpip for assigning these ranges?

      I know many regs. with an AVERAGE vpip of <10. However, when it comes down to the 'big finale' they loosen up considerably.

      So perhaps I need TWO phase vpip measurements depending on the stage of the tourney/their chip stack.

      So, I'm either looking to improve the reliability of vpip or find another stat that gives me a better idea of their call/shove range...

      How do I do this?....

      If you were to get Holdem Manager or Poker Tracker, you would be able to see a whole range of useful stats.

      PFR% (Preflop Raise %)m fold to 3bet, fold blinds to raise. There's just too many too list.

      As to regs, that's the easy way to identify a knowledgable reg. Players who know how the 45 manners play out will play nitty tight early. They want to get to the final table where they will loosen up by playing ICM/Nash ranges.

      Most regs I have seen are certainly only playing < 15% and with their looser FT play generally means they end up with an overall VPiP% in the low 20s.
    • cryoburn
      cryoburn
      Silver
      Joined: 17.11.2008 Posts: 322
      You should take advantage of every tool and every study material you can get your hands on (or buy). That's the only way to keep up in this game.

      - If you want to profit at SNG you definitly need to use a HUD (ie. with HoldemManager or PokerTracker).
      - For managing multitabling TableNinja is very good.
      - Study hypotetical scenarios, math and decision-making with SNGwiz.
      - Review your sessions to find out mistakes and leaks.


      Regarding opponents' ranges in MTSNGs:

      Yes, ranges will be very maleable through the sng especially amongst regs. And so should yours.
      But what you're talking about is not that easy to do. There's no magical stats. There are adequate stats that you should be paying attention but remember that opponents vary their play, so each hand deeper ITM is more situational dependent than just statistical or static range dependent.

      The basic VPIP/PFR should always be there. But when analysing specific spots you may have to look at other stats (that should at least be in your hud popup) like ColdCalling (IP/OOP), 3B, LimpCall, LimpReRaise, etc.

      But also very important is taking notes on opponents regarding their range. So taking notes on position, stack size, hand, and stage of the sng (eg. FT, bubble, etc). For instance you should note that "Villain Reg 123" is openshoving T8o with 7bb from UTG pre-bubble. Or that "Nit Reg 99" is capable of 3B shove QJs vs BTN min-steal with 4 players left, vs another reg.

      With TableNinja I find it harder to keep up with the current session, the players, note taking and reads. So you can do it after each session.
      Nowadays I prefer to play 10-12 tables without tableninja and make those kinds of notes while playing (I used to 24table cash games in 2011).

      You should only increase table number after a lot of experience in decision-making, particularly only regarding to stats.
    • Lazza61
      Lazza61
      Headadmin
      Headadmin
      Joined: 23.03.2011 Posts: 9,151
      Seriously good advice. I wish I could have said all that. lol :P
    • cryoburn
      cryoburn
      Silver
      Joined: 17.11.2008 Posts: 322
      Btw, having some losing sessions, long stretches without big wins (top3) or having some +50BI (or +100, +200 on higher stakes in 180mans) downswings can happen a lot in MTSNG. And variance can be higher in faster blind structure and higher number of players (90man or 180man).

      So if you're confident in your game, don't worry. While going on the path to become a profitable player, you should pay attention to your decisions about the game like BRM, game selection, table selection, in-game (raise, fold, call, 3B, 4B, etc) and not on actual results.

      Though if you have +2k games (of the same type, ie. $1 45mans turbo) and have a negative ROI perhaps you should consider having still a lot of fundamental leaks. Focus on improving your decisions and not on making money. You've probably heard this a lot everywhere and it's easier said than done. But I find it to be actually true.

      GL
    • 1
    • 2