AK preflop at the micros

    • pockettones
      pockettones
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      Joined: 23.03.2013 Posts: 114
      So... I feel I lose money 5bet shoving AK against micros regs (I play 5NL at stars).
      It seems that they will only ever have QQ+, even in blind battle/utg vs bu scenarios. I 'm perfectly fine stacking them off with a fish, but I think I should only ever 5bet ship KK or AA. An exception to this is I will call/ship lighter if if I think a reg is tilting.
  • 25 replies
    • Itsnevereasy
      Itsnevereasy
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      Joined: 08.08.2010 Posts: 381
      I think you should almost always 5bet jam AK...

      Consider not 3betting AK all the time though. For example if a tight player raises UTG, flat with AK on the button etc. There are a lot of situations where flatting with AK>3betting. Once you correctly 3bet, 5betting is almost always the best option.
    • pockettones
      pockettones
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      Joined: 23.03.2013 Posts: 114
      I almost always flat AK vs utg... in fact I will usually only 3bet it from the sb or BB against a steal. Would you say 5bet shoving vs the bu in the blinds would be a cooler running into AA/KK?
    • Itsnevereasy
      Itsnevereasy
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      Joined: 08.08.2010 Posts: 381
      Would you say 5bet shoving vs the bu in the blinds would be a cooler running into AA/KK?


      Yeh definetely. You should set up your HUD/popups so that you know how often ppl 4bet...
    • pockettones
      pockettones
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      Joined: 23.03.2013 Posts: 114
      I do lol. I have 3bet/fold 3bet, 4bet/fold 4bet.

      4bet stats take quite a sample size though, generally though most 5NL regs 4bet will equate to 2%-3% (this prolly isnt even that accurate as I usually wont have more than 1k hands on a reg) so its value only. I'm sure this will be a lot more handy moving up stakes.
    • gadget51
      gadget51
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      Joined: 23.06.2008 Posts: 5,622
      Hi all,

      I've moved this to the no limit forums.

      Regards,

      Mal.
    • Walshnm
      Walshnm
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      Joined: 18.12.2008 Posts: 198
      I think you should continue to 3bet/4bet as normal/ is considered optimal and adjust your 5 shove bet based on opponents 3bet/4bet % case by case.

      In my experience (esp. at micros) getting 100BB AK in pre is never a great move unless you have a very specific read or vs. a total LAGtard. Way too often you are going to find a big pair and even if you are flipping vs. QQ you will find your taking a very variance heavy line to profit (Some would argue that after the rake its even -EV).

      One exception is that in some situations if you get a read that a bet size = AK you can consider small 5betting to actually induce a fold from a decent opponent.

      E.G. at $10NL I often find that overly large threebets equate to AK so a weird 5bet (not a shove) vs. these bets can actually give you a marginal edge OR called with big split equity OR called with 50% equity. NOTE: Obv. in these cases you are never 5bet folding. You also have the potential to get folds from med to big pairs too depending on your opponent.

      GL GL GL
    • spreeboy
      spreeboy
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      Joined: 06.09.2010 Posts: 223
      OOP, I usually play AK fast and almost always 3bet or 4bet. However. stacking off with this hand is villain and dynamic dependent. If you are punishing the table postflop and is able to manage to really chip up because of better overall skill, there is no point flipping preflop with fellow regs or fishes that would stack off with 77. If we stack off preflop with AK and a fish called with a hand like 77, we basically give him a good chance of beating us.

      Also by flatting AK esp IP, we can play back on almost any flop by representing low hand on low board and of course playing back if A hits the flop.
    • patszerdonk
      patszerdonk
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      Joined: 19.05.2011 Posts: 834
      AK vs 22-QQ is 50% so what do you expect to all in with it?

      1. in order to wider your jam range to improve your image. And image is not important at the micros

      2. etc. :)
    • patszerdonk
      patszerdonk
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      Joined: 19.05.2011 Posts: 834
      to make it clear: if your opponent AI range AQ+, 22+ then he is slightly better than you AK


      And: we can construct 10% range that have better equity vs AKo
      http://www.pokerstrategy.com
      Equity Win Tie
      MP2 49.53% 45.98% 3.55% { AKo }
      MP3 50.47% 46.91% 3.55% { 22+, AKs, 96s+, 85s+, 74s+, 64s+, 54s, AKo }
    • spreeboy
      spreeboy
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      Joined: 06.09.2010 Posts: 223
      Originally posted by patszerdonk
      AK vs 22-QQ is 50% so what do you expect to all in with it?

      1. in order to wider your jam range to improve your image. And image is not important at the micros

      2. etc. :)
      I am not saying that we don't go all in with AK, its just that I prefer to stack off with it with some previous dynamic. Ex. I am playing laggish and making villain fold a few hands before preflop with some 3bets/4bets. This way, villain may lower his preflop stack off range and may add some AQ-AJs type hands in his 5bet shove and 5bet call range. Point is, by default esp without reads or dynamincs yet, I dont like 50% equity preflop with 100BB es.
    • patszerdonk
      patszerdonk
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      Joined: 19.05.2011 Posts: 834
      Originally posted by spreeboy
      Originally posted by patszerdonk
      AK vs 22-QQ is 50% so what do you expect to all in with it?

      1. in order to wider your jam range to improve your image. And image is not important at the micros

      2. etc. :)
      I am not saying that we don't go all in with AK, its just that I prefer to stack off with it with some previous dynamic. Ex. I am playing laggish and making villain fold a few hands before preflop with some 3bets/4bets. This way, villain may lower his preflop stack off range and may add some AQ-AJs type hands in his 5bet shove and 5bet call range. Point is, by default esp without reads or dynamincs yet, I dont like 50% equity preflop with 100BB es.
      If we filter HM/PT: "went all in pfeflop with AK and showdown" (do not include call all in!!)
      I believe the result will be negative.

      Note: I'm not saying go broke with AK at the micros is -EV. It's +EV. Most of the profit come from villain fold to my AI.
      I myself AI preflop with it but we must find right spot.
    • DrDunne
      DrDunne
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      Joined: 29.12.2010 Posts: 3,338
      Originally posted by spreeboy
      villain may lower his preflop stack off range and may add some AQ-AJs type hands in his 5bet shove and 5bet call range. Point is, by default esp without reads or dynamincs yet, I dont like 50% equity preflop with 100BB es.
      imo you'll have a pretty hard time finding opponents who like to get it in worse than QQ+ and AK around nl10. also there is a big problem with the bolded part of your post.

      Originally posted by patszerdonk
      Note: I'm not saying go broke with AK at the micros is -EV. It's +EV. Most of the profit come from villain fold to my AI.
      I myself AI preflop with it but we must find right spot.
      +1 to this, i think this is way too often overlooked. if you look at the EV of calling an allin with AK vs {QQ+ & AK} then you will see it is ~+1bb-2bb... if you however consider the overall situation where you 4bet preflop and then face a jam, you'll see that the EV increases quite a bit. and i don't doubt for a second that jamming over a villain's 4bet will generally be quite +EV as well.

      the point is that you need to stop looking at the results of when you get setups, but instead you should look at all of the situations where you 4bet and villain folds and when you jam over an opponent's 4bet as well.

      i don't necessarily agree with auto-spamming AK and playing it fast as a standard though, i think you definitely need to pick your spots for it as was mentioned a few times above. for example, against some opponents it might well be the most +EV play to call and play postflop. just consider the overall situation - this is the most important.
    • Walshnm
      Walshnm
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      Joined: 18.12.2008 Posts: 198
      Originally posted by DrDunne
      Originally posted by spreeboy
      villain may lower his preflop stack off range and may add some AQ-AJs type hands in his 5bet shove and 5bet call range. Point is, by default esp without reads or dynamincs yet, I dont like 50% equity preflop with 100BB es.
      imo you'll have a pretty hard time finding opponents who like to get it in worse than QQ+ and AK around nl10. also there is a big problem with the bolded part of your post.

      Originally posted by patszerdonk
      Note: I'm not saying go broke with AK at the micros is -EV. It's +EV. Most of the profit come from villain fold to my AI.
      I myself AI preflop with it but we must find right spot.
      +1 to this, i think this is way too often overlooked. if you look at the EV of calling an allin with AK vs {QQ+ & AK} then you will see it is ~+1bb-2bb... if you however consider the overall situation where you 4bet preflop and then face a jam, you'll see that the EV increases quite a bit. and i don't doubt for a second that jamming over a villain's 4bet will generally be quite +EV as well.

      the point is that you need to stop looking at the results of when you get setups, but instead you should look at all of the situations where you 4bet and villain folds and when you jam over an opponent's 4bet as well.

      i don't necessarily agree with auto-spamming AK and playing it fast as a standard though, i think you definitely need to pick your spots for it as was mentioned a few times above. for example, against some opponents it might well be the most +EV play to call and play postflop. just consider the overall situation - this is the most important.
      But in situations where you are ~ 1bb-2bb + are you not losing once you include rake?
    • gadget51
      gadget51
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      Joined: 23.06.2008 Posts: 5,622
      On the other hand, try a Saturday or Sunday night on some sites and watch what they go all in with and then come back and say that pushing AK isn't profitable at nl4/5/10 6max. :D Obviously full ring is a different animal.
      We also need to bare in mind along with everything else, stack sizes, which are one of my first considerations before I plan any sort of move.
      Don't worry about image too much unless you or villain have been getting out of hand extremely often, not many will adjust correctly.

      Kind regards,

      Mal.
    • DrDunne
      DrDunne
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      Joined: 29.12.2010 Posts: 3,338
      Originally posted by Walshnm
      But in situations where you are ~ 1bb-2bb + are you not losing once you include rake?
      It's possible that if you include rake it *might* be -EV. I'm not 100% sure about this myself but that is a consideration for sure. If you want to read about this stuff then I can definitely recommend reading this 4part article series: AK and QQ at the lower limits.
    • amater0001
      amater0001
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      Joined: 07.04.2011 Posts: 182
      I play FR NL2-10. AK is basically never stack-off hand preflop.
      In my experience vs. microregs it's always KK+. They often even
      fold and show QQ vs. 4-bet shove.


      Sometimes you might 4- or 5-bet push vs. tourney players who don't fold smth like 88+ or AQ+ but they're rare.
    • gadget51
      gadget51
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      Joined: 23.06.2008 Posts: 5,622
      I am absolutely sure it's not always KK+ at micros in 6 max;

      So to find if it's -ev or not I expect you'd need to factor in results like this from 15 minutes or so ago?

      MP: $9.11 (227.7 bb)
      CO: $4.88 (122 bb)
      BTN: $5.07 (126.8 bb)
      Hero (SB): $10.19 (254.7 bb)
      BB: $2.72 (68 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is SB with A A
      MP folds, CO raises to $0.12, BTN folds, Hero raises to $0.38, BB raises to $2.72 and is all-in, CO folds, Hero calls $2.34

      Flop: ($5.56) 9 9 7 (2 players, 1 is all-in)
      Turn: ($5.56) 3 (2 players, 1 is all-in)
      River: ($5.56) 6 (2 players, 1 is all-in)

      Results:
      $5.56 pot ($0.55 rake)
      Final Board: 9 9 7 3 6
      Hero showed A A and won $5.01 ($2.29 net)
      BB showed Q 5 and lost (-$2.72 net)


      Only one counter-example needed to dispel a theory. Case rests.

      I am of course open to ridicule and enlightenment! :)

      Mal.
    • DrDunne
      DrDunne
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      Joined: 29.12.2010 Posts: 3,338
      Originally posted by amater0001
      I play FR NL2-10. AK is basically never stack-off hand preflop.
      In my experience vs. microregs it's always KK+. They often even
      fold and show QQ vs. 4-bet shove.


      Sometimes you might 4- or 5-bet push vs. tourney players who don't fold smth like 88+ or AQ+ but they're rare.
      A couple of things... first off, fullring is super nitty by nature and i agree that AK and QQ won't be an easy stackoff against most people just from my own experience of it. Also, 4bet-shoving allows your opponent to do just that and fold his QQ and call only KK+. Whether or not he is correct to do that is another debate but the point is when you 4bet-jam you are never bluffing (not saying having a 4bet-bluffing range on nl2 fr is a good idea either!) in his eyes, and so QQ will only be a very slight favourite if not a huge underdog. He can just play perfectly vs your jam. So I think the two situations are completely different and I was assuming we were talking about shorthanded.
    • Walshnm
      Walshnm
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      Joined: 18.12.2008 Posts: 198
      Originally posted by DrDunne
      Originally posted by Walshnm
      But in situations where you are ~ 1bb-2bb + are you not losing once you include rake?
      It's possible that if you include rake it *might* be -EV. I'm not 100% sure about this myself but that is a consideration for sure. If you want to read about this stuff then I can definitely recommend reading this 4part article series: AK and QQ at the lower limits.
      Well it was my logic that if you have a 5% edge (E.G. QQ vs. AK) your expected value of 1 million instances is 5BB on average.

      If you then assume that the pot will be raked up to 5-10% in 200BB pots surely your edge is lost to the house?

      Just speculating but this makes sense to me :/
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