MTT - SNGs

    • RockEye
      RockEye
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      Joined: 12.08.2008 Posts: 416
      I am having problems playing MTT - SNG's. When i started playing online poker, i was actually good at playing SNG's. I've won several of them, but when my general poker knowledge started to expand i play cash games better, but can't seem to last more then 1/4 of MTT or SNG.
      The only possible reason i see is that is play too tight. Everywhere i was reading even here on PS the rule is "tight is right on the beggining". But i see the action of other players playing ultra agressively with marginal hands and slowly building their stacks. I fold 99% of my hands cause i can't get a single good hand to play with, then blinds start to eat me alive.
      It all looks as i'd be cursed or something. I did a test and tryed to call, raise, reraise and "look and behold" i started to get better cards. Wtf! It seems that ppl playing agressively get better hole cards and more often. But then again i burned my chips fast and still fell out very early, cause my AA,KK and every pair or three of kinds gets cracked.
      Did somebody noticed that?

      I am beginning to wonder if tournaments are like LOTO or roulete, it all depends on luck?

      I am having no problem playing cash games successfully but MTTs and SNG's are a mistery for me.
      Can someone share their point of view and their oppinions, how the MTTs and SNGs should be played.
  • 21 replies
    • NiekamNeidomu
      NiekamNeidomu
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      Joined: 29.05.2007 Posts: 307
      sng variance is alot bigger.. T_T
    • kukkiwonBG
      kukkiwonBG
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      Joined: 27.07.2008 Posts: 4,494
      Start learning ICM before playing sng at all
      Tight in the beginning and loose pushesh in the end. It's that simple.
      :D :D :D
      Tournaments maybe a lotto, but you cannot get "lucky" if you play bad.
      Good poker=more luck
      Every body lose more of the tour.. they play.
      But only bad player never win without luck :rolleyes:
    • cannell555
      cannell555
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      Joined: 06.03.2008 Posts: 2,410
      Hi RockEye,

      I have moved your thread to the Tourney/SnG section, you should get more feedback there.

      In SnG's, you are forced to play a wide range of hands in the endgame. Therefore you are more likely to get a badbeat, as in a cash game, because in cash games you will only ever be allin with a premium hand.

      Tourneys do need alot of luck (or just not alot of bad luck), but also depend hugely on skill. Notice in the big tourneys, big names are usually at the final table. So there is defiantly alot of skill involved.

      Best regards,
      Stiev
    • curnow
      curnow
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      Joined: 10.10.2007 Posts: 1,039
      Originally posted by RockEye
      I am beginning to wonder if tournaments are like LOTO or roulete, it all depends on luck?

      I am having no problem playing cash games successfully but MTTs and SNG's are a mistery for me.
      Can someone share their point of view and their oppinions, how the MTTs and SNGs should be played.
      SNG are a lot easier than MTT to play , study ICM & you should do ok in Turbo sng , be care full using it in normal sng as you will get trapped

      Tournaments you need a strategy and it depends on size / blind structure and if rebuy/freezeout

      only play freezeouts if you not used to rebuys & look for 10/15 min blinds & with fields not to high , maybe the 27/45/90/180 sng on PokerStars & FullTilt are good way to get used to MTT

      PokerStrategy dont have a good Strategy Articles but they did say they were working on it & you can find some on the net
    • Grimzor
      Grimzor
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      Joined: 28.03.2008 Posts: 421
      Originally posted by kukkiwonBG
      Tournaments maybe a lotto, but you cannot get "lucky" if you play bad.
      Wrong imo. You cant get lucky if you play good :) If you go all-in only with best hand then you cant suck out on someone as you are already ahead. You can get bad beat tho.

      MTTs have a lot of luck involved but if you play good you should get itm fair amount of times and also will get to higher places once in a while. That together will give you decent ROI over time.

      About SNGs - learn icm and keep playing tight at start. No need to risk chips at start. While playing aggressive you might accumulate bigger stack but since blinds are low you wont get much ahead of rest of players. And if you play tight you will probably need one double up to get up to same level.
    • RockEye
      RockEye
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      Joined: 12.08.2008 Posts: 416
      Thx everyone for replies. All the MTTs i played recently, ppl were bluffing 80%. And usually reward went to the bluffer cause they get lucky a lot.
      Example:
      I hold the KK. I raise 4BB preflop, villain (chip leader has around 12k chips) reraises, to 12BB i go all in with around 4000 chips he calls and he hits two pairs on a flop with guess what 7,2o!!! YES!!!
      Now you are telling me that he is a skilled player?
      I know things like this happen, but it happens to me every MTT or SNG i play.
      I wait and i wait and i wait, i don't wanna risk my chips cause i am playing tight according to PS articles and once in a 60 hands i get something worth playing. Then of course all my hands get cracked, EVERYTIME!
      I guess my luck isn't what it should be for playing poker at all :D
      I need more training or more luck i guess.
    • curnow
      curnow
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      Joined: 10.10.2007 Posts: 1,039
      72o does hit some times & people will play it or hands for that reason because its fun , the site & buy-in will affect the amount of bad players on it but most will try to hit big on the flop or get away from it

      in most tourneys , if you wait for big hands ( allowing they hold up ) you will still get blinded away , early levels you want to build chips & limp with suited connectors small pairs and hands that can make monsters & get away from it if you dont hit big

      this will make your MTT a lot more comfortable , every one get card dead at some time & with few steals & nice stack takes the pressure of

      most MTT will tighten up before the bubble & take advantage of it with more steal from weak players , post bubble depends on your chip stack but the game will loosen up a lot untill the money goes up

      MTT all about changing gears and most sng players are good at it and if you are a good sng player , the final table of a MTT will become the easiest part of the game knowing you got that edge to make top 3 & go onto win it
    • miskokvo
      miskokvo
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      Joined: 28.03.2008 Posts: 1,502
      i hate MTT :) yestrday i was playing one of them.... field of 650players. .... 7k guaranted rebuy tuournament... after 3 hours there were left 100 players... 70 was payd... i had nice very nice stack with 19BB.... raised AK preflop on midl position 3BB... get reraised to 90% of my stack by pretty tight player... but if i want to be in nice spot in money i should gamble and call....


      i was putting him on JJ QQ 99 or better but i decided to gamble and call coz i saw lot of all in pushes with 88 99 TT.......... HE SOW ME 44!!!!!

      he puted his 85% of big stack to risk with 44 ... 30 people before paying ....

      after flop i cath JQ - opened straight drow ...so i was at nice spot but i didnt catch anything so after 3 hours get busted near money with 44 was pretty sick to my MTT carer
    • Hlynkinn
      Hlynkinn
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      Joined: 14.06.2008 Posts: 4,998
      Miskokvo:
      Standard... People will gamble on the bubble since it's very often that most players tighten up... Like imagine you thought about folding AK???
      you don't play mtt's to get to the cash... you need to play them to get to the final table... Imagine the stack you would've had if you had won the hand... that would've been nice...

      And on topic...

      Most good tournament players will tell you TAG is the right way in the first stages... You should though limp sc and small pairs in late position(if your acting after a limp)... since often your getting high implied odds on those...

      LAG can also work early in tournaments but you need a lot of post flop skills to play that way...

      For the early middle stages of a tournament 50/100 blinds r some
      I would say keep playing TAG... A lot of new tournament players will start stealing here.. I think it's not yet worth the steal... Here I would just play tag and build your image for the next few levels

      Middle stages 100/200 antes 25
      Now here I would recomend start stealing... Antes are high 15% r some of the bb... Now it's really good to have a nice read on your opponents... In this level blind stealing will be loose... so if you see the dude on your right stealing a lot... you shouldn't wait for a good hand ( Many players seem to think like that ) you should start to resteal from him... So when there is a lot of stealing... Re-stealing will be a powerfull weapon...
      - Make your decisions here based on stack sizes... pick on the small stacks

      Middle late stages 200/400 w antes
      Now we are getting close to the bubble... Now you need to look around your tables and see who is playing for the win and what players are only playing for the cash... for those small stacks that are only playing for the cash... RAISE RAISE RAISE... they will always fold...
      Now this is the place were you need to take some changes... coinflips could often be the right thing to do... This stage in the tournament is the place you build most of your stack... or you lose all of your stack...

      Late stages 300/600 w antes
      Now the bubble has burst... those players that limped to the money now go maniac... I think in low buy in tournaments the field often gets kinda loose just after the bubble... I kinda often sit back at this stage and wait for premium hands...

      Late stage 500/1000 w antes
      Raise a lot... Take some changes... you now need to build up your stack for the final table... Pick on the small stacks and you'll probably need to take some coin flips at this stage.

      Final Table... Just play your best.. and take the 1st place :D

      I'm in school and had nothing better to do then write this down... lol... I'm probably not the right guy to make this post but whatever... at least this is how I play tourneys and what i've read so far :)

      not detailed but should give you an idea how to play tourneys

      Also you should never fold AK in a tourney... if you fold AK in a tourney you aint playing for the win.
    • Hlynkinn
      Hlynkinn
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      Joined: 14.06.2008 Posts: 4,998
      Originally posted by curnow
      72o does hit some times & people will play it or hands for that reason because its fun , the site & buy-in will affect the amount of bad players on it but most will try to hit big on the flop or get away from it

      in most tourneys , if you wait for big hands ( allowing they hold up ) you will still get blinded away , early levels you want to build chips & limp with suited connectors small pairs and hands that can make monsters & get away from it if you dont hit big

      this will make your MTT a lot more comfortable , every one get card dead at some time & with few steals & nice stack takes the pressure of

      most MTT will tighten up before the bubble & take advantage of it with more steal from weak players , post bubble depends on your chip stack but the game will loosen up a lot untill the money goes up

      MTT all about changing gears and most sng players are good at it and if you are a good sng player , the final table of a MTT will become the easiest part of the game knowing you got that edge to make top 3 & go onto win it
      +1

      quality post.... Should've read it before I made my monster post lol :D
    • RockEye
      RockEye
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      Joined: 12.08.2008 Posts: 416
      Thx curnow and Hlynkinn, you both gave me something to think about and a reason to change my Too tight play at MTTs and SNGs. Really good thinking there.
      If i remember correctly when i started playing poker 3 months ago i didn't even read any of articles here on PS or any book and i was winning a lot of SNGs just playing with my instinct. I played a lot of hands, therefore flop hit me more often.
      I guess on cash tables it's enough to have a starting hands chart ready, but tournaments require more skill and and you have to be more careful with moves you make.
    • miskokvo
      miskokvo
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      Joined: 28.03.2008 Posts: 1,502
      Hlynkinn: you just typed first think that u imagine...
      read this sentence again: I RAISED IN MIDLE POSITION.... HE RERAISED ME AGAIN...

      you teling my of gamblig coz u know i was holding AK .. so it was 50:50 ...but i can easily raise with 55,66,77,88,99,TT,JJ,QQ,KK,AA with his 44 was dominated 8:2 ..... 81% agains 19% ...so before u write something just think about it :O

      my VPIP was about 13% so player with IQ more than 20 will fold 44...

      if u telling me that is correct to re-raised all in another big stack risking whole turnament with pocket 44 ... there is problem in your head sorry but i must say it
    • Hlynkinn
      Hlynkinn
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      Joined: 14.06.2008 Posts: 4,998
      Originally posted by miskokvo
      Hlynkinn: you just typed first think that u imagine...
      read this sentence again: I RAISED IN MIDLE POSITION.... HE RERAISED ME AGAIN...

      you teling my of gamblig coz u know i was holding AK .. so it was 50:50 ...but i can easily raise with 55,66,77,88,99,TT,JJ,QQ,KK,AA with his 44 was dominated 8:2 ..... 81% agains 19% ...so before u write something just think about it :O

      my VPIP was about 13% so player with IQ more than 20 will fold 44...

      if u telling me that is correct to re-raised all in another big stack risking whole turnament with pocket 44 ... there is problem in your head sorry but i must say it
      No need to say I have a problem in my head....

      And of course I can't really judge the hand... Since I don't have the whole hand nor the history of the guy...
      But I'm just saying it's standard...

      there are two options.. dude is a retard and is value pushing you with 44 :D

      But tbh if he's a good player he knows your scared of him because of the big stack...

      And you kinda say yourself in the post why his raise is so often right...
      but i can easily raise with 55,66,77,88,99....

      And your folding those hands against his push...
      44 is a nice hand to re-steal with..
      my VPIP was about 13% so player with IQ more than 20 will fold 44...

      VPIP 13%... means your an easy target to re-steal from :D

      I mean you thought about folding AK... Imagine the FE dude had on you...

      But not like I know how the dude was playing... I don't feel he made such a wrong move... Your not always holding KK or AA or AK and well you thought about folding AK... then there are so many hands you could have raised with and then folded to his re-raise...

      44 aint a bad hand to re-steal chips from a tight bigstack like you were.... your only calling the re-raise with 10+ or AT+...
      So coinflip or doomed... or you gain few blinds...
      It's a move that sounds kinda good to me....
    • miskokvo
      miskokvo
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      Joined: 28.03.2008 Posts: 1,502
      whatever... keep in your mind re-raising with 44 is good idea and we will see how long do u be there :) ... it is fine for me coz dead money is always good :)
    • 1seednoir1
      1seednoir1
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      Joined: 27.05.2008 Posts: 1,068
      Actually what i think about your discussion concerning the 44push it that;

      It's maybe a bad move against u who had a big stack. But there is 2ways to play 44... or you fold to a bet or raise... or you go for a coinflip... smooth calling with 44 would mean, an easy fold on the flop since the flop will 90% of the time have cards highter than 4...
      So this guy went for a coin flip (by beeing pot commited with the re-raise) knowing that he'll be super big stack if he win it. sometimes people just have faith on 44, first because it's already a made PP, also you often see people hit a set with it. The re-raise could also mean that he wanted to protect his hand... letting you think that he has JJ+...
      Sometimes u just have to let AK go... just because u want to KEEP ur chips and find a more appropriate time to risk them...
    • Grimzor
      Grimzor
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      Joined: 28.03.2008 Posts: 421
      Attacking ppl who spent time to write something that might help you is really good idea imo... Wanted to write something but you know it all better miskokvo, i am just dead money you know.
    • miskokvo
      miskokvo
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      Joined: 28.03.2008 Posts: 1,502
      sorry guys you can tell my whatever you want but trying re-reise/re-steal with 44 is stupidity.. you just finding way to defend that guy...

      and stop saying of coinflip it makes my rely sick... there are maybe 3 hands good enough to raise in midl position AK,AQs,KQs, with is coinflip...


      there are 10-hands (55,66,77,88,99,TT,JJ,QQ,KK,AA) dominating him 82%:18%-this hands i can easily have when im raising....especialy TT+



      and dont forget that guy was in big blind so he should fold coz defending BB with 44 in full ring of 10 players .. god if just think about it for one second you will admire that was very bad/sad move for him
    • Grimzor
      Grimzor
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      Joined: 28.03.2008 Posts: 421
      Originally posted by miskokvo
      sorry guys you can tell my whatever you want but trying re-reise/re-steal with 44 is stupidity.. you just finding way to defend that guy...

      and stop saying of coinflip it makes my rely sick... there are maybe 3 hands good enough to raise in midl position AK,AQs,KQs, with is coinflip...


      there are 10-hands (55,66,77,88,99,TT,JJ,QQ,KK,AA) dominating him 82%:18%-this hands i can easily have when im raising....especialy TT+



      and dont forget that guy was in big blind so he should fold coz defending BB with 44 in full ring of 10 players .. god if just think about it for one second you will admire that was very bad/sad move for him
      Lets see from other perspective. 13 VPIP - you play tight. Would tight player raise 55-88 from MP close to bubble when BB is bigger stack? Maybe, maybe not. I would be more inclined to think that he wouldnt. i would put on range like 99+, AJs+, AQo+. Dont know about KQs. So there are 99, TT, JJ, QQ, KK, AA pairs - each has 6 hands possible. Then there is AK, AQ - 16 hands each possible, AJ only suited and lets take KQ too suited - 4 hands each possible. So in total we have 6x6 = 36 pair hands, 2x16 = 32 hands from AK and AQ, and 8 more hands from AJ, KQ. So 36:40 that tight raiser doesnt have pair. If he has pair we have 80:20, if he doesnt we have flip with us being slight favourite. Dont have equitlator so will do math old style - (36*0,2 + 40*0,55)/76 = ~38% equity if i got it right.

      Now. 44 guy has bigger stack and money is close. If he loses he still has chance to get ITM. If he wins he gets way higher chance of making deep ITM. Close to money also means he can put big pressure on you. Now, if he pushes what hands would tight player call? AA, KK, QQ and probably JJ too. AK. If i was the tight player i would muck KQ, AJ, AQ. Not sure about TT and 99. I think we can easily get 12% fold equity to make this EV neutral. I think we might get even more fold equity making that move good. And take pot odds into acount as well. Since he was BB his pot odds were also making this move better.

      I have excluded hands like 55-88 from calculation. If you raised such hands our equity to win pot in case of call after our resteal would fall but fold equity raise as i cant imagine tight player put his tourney life at risk with 55 so close to money.

      Dont know if i had pushed 44. Depends on stacks and action before. What i am saying is - its viable move.


      btw. You cant count hands like AK = 1 and AA = 1. Since there are 6 ways to make AA and 16 ways to make AK hand.

      And one more thing. You said you put him on 99-QQ and wanted to flip. So what are you crying? 44 vs AK is basically the same flip as AK vs 99. Wanted flip, got you flip.
    • curnow
      curnow
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      Joined: 10.10.2007 Posts: 1,039
      Originally posted by miskokvo
      sorry guys you can tell my whatever you want but trying re-reise/re-steal with 44 is stupidity.. you just finding way to defend that guy...

      Look at it from his point of view , not saying 44 is right or wrong

      smallish stack raises your BB , if he thinks its a coinflip he will only take on a small stack and he is hoping you will fold , you must have some kind of read on him & knowing he not that good of player , you are in good position to build your stack at worst its a 50/50 and at best a 65/35

      in any MTT you need some luck even to win 2 60/40 is unlikely & picking on soft players will help build stack & when playing loose big stack just make sure you got a hand first , they will pay you off
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