Playing perfect poker

    • WinStrat
      WinStrat
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.12.2011 Posts: 138
      Playing perfect poker

      With today's poker books.
      With today's coaching and videos.
      With today's tools like Huds, ICM calculator, Nash equilibrium tools, etc...

      Given all this information and the best minds in poker.

      How close are we to see perfect poker (in theory) being played?
  • 19 replies
    • Alan883
      Alan883
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.12.2008 Posts: 1,941
      Hello there WinStrat,

      i was thinking for few minutes what to say. There are so many factors we need to think about to say what is perfect and what is not. Maybe fix limit poker can be close to perfection but i believe there is still room at NL holdem.

      It is a bit also difficult to measure what is perfect and what is not.

      We watch Ronaldo and Messi in football and ask ourselves are they perfect? Who will be better than both of them. Have we ever seen better players than they are.

      People were watching tennis and said that there won't be any more guys like Federer but now they are questioning themselves if Nadal can be even better.

      They thought that Schumacher is unbeatable but right now there is Vettel.

      I read a book about poker where poker was introduced like game of chess. I bet chess is also very close to perfection but there are still players who can put the game even on higher level. So i think the same applies in poker. It will be interesting to see in what way poker will develop.

      It would be interesting to hear some thoughts of poker pros what do they think.
    • lnternet
      lnternet
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.06.2012 Posts: 782
      in fixed limit and SNG we are at a point where the top winners today will be losing only slightly vs the best possible future players (I can't quantity slightly, sorry).

      in no limit we are still at a point where even the top players will get crushed by free software in a couple years time (again, I can't quantify crushed, sorry).

      in omaha I have no idea, but from what I hear from some high stakes friends there is that they are far behind no limit theory, so my best guess would be that player in 2 years will crush today's players, while those in turn will be crushed by players in 6 years, and those will maybe be where fixed limit is today.


      All "imo" and wild speculation though
    • WinStrat
      WinStrat
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.12.2011 Posts: 138
      I think certain games are near a threshold where it is very hard to get a big edge over the competition.

      The fishes learn fast or they go broke.

      Some regs are just exchanging money and paying rake.

      Going up in stake without studying and working hard is just too much of a risk.

      As a recreational player I'm just riding the wave with what I know because I feel putting the hours to learn would not give me much more of a significant edge.

      I'm still learning but it must be fun or else I just quit.
    • badgerer
      badgerer
      Silver
      Joined: 29.03.2010 Posts: 555
      i think it could be just a matter of time until no limit is completely solved. i imagine there will be software developed in the future that can accurately advise even absolute beginner players of the optimal play in any situation. someone somewhere will get very rich very quick and the games will slowly die.
    • Alan883
      Alan883
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.12.2008 Posts: 1,941
      I see we are all very optimistic here :f_biggrin:
    • WinStrat
      WinStrat
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.12.2011 Posts: 138
      Originally posted by Alan883
      I see we are all very optimistic here :f_biggrin:
      Well tell me what is so good about poker these days?
    • PriscoInline
      PriscoInline
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.05.2012 Posts: 326
      Originally posted by WinStrat
      Originally posted by Alan883
      I see we are all very optimistic here :f_biggrin:
      Well tell me what is so good about poker these days?
      PokerStrategy? :f_biggrin:
    • JCSeerup
      JCSeerup
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.12.2010 Posts: 1,039
      Originally posted by badgerer
      i think it could be just a matter of time until no limit is completely solved. i imagine there will be software developed in the future that can accurately advise even absolute beginner players of the optimal play in any situation. someone somewhere will get very rich very quick and the games will slowly die.
      Even if someone makes a softwear that can solve the game and learn it to any player every player won't learn it. It's just like in school, everybody have a chance to be straight A if the just put in the time and effort, but how many does that?

      Learning the NE for every single play won't be possible for a human because it's too complex, but someone might come close enough so that can't be beaten, but bad GTO players will still lose to good GTO players.
    • WinStrat
      WinStrat
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.12.2011 Posts: 138
      Originally posted by PriscoInline
      PokerStrategy? :f_biggrin:
      I think PokerStrategy is in a downward spiral following the rest of the poker world.

      Not PS fault, but I don't know what it would take to see a reversal of the situation.
    • unshpe
      unshpe
      Basic
      Joined: 20.05.2013 Posts: 294
      Salvation will come (if) from US players returning.
    • badgerer
      badgerer
      Silver
      Joined: 29.03.2010 Posts: 555
      Originally posted by JCSeerup
      Even if someone makes a softwear that can solve the game and learn it to any player every player won't learn it. It's just like in school, everybody have a chance to be straight A if the just put in the time and effort, but how many does that?

      Learning the NE for every single play won't be possible for a human because it's too complex, but someone might come close enough so that can't be beaten, but bad GTO players will still lose to good GTO players.
      i was thinking something similar to a hud that can basicly tell you what to do as you play. no learning required!

      im curious about the concept of a bad GTO player. its supposed to be optimal, that doesn't leave much grey area. you're either optimal or you're not right?
    • badgerer
      badgerer
      Silver
      Joined: 29.03.2010 Posts: 555
      Originally posted by unshpe
      Salvation will come (if) from US players returning.
      spanish, italian and french too. damn i miss those guys.
    • patszerdonk
      patszerdonk
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.05.2011 Posts: 834
      Originally posted by badgerer
      Originally posted by unshpe
      Salvation will come (if) from US players returning.
      spanish, italian and french too. damn i miss those guys.
      The problem is rec : reg ratio not good. Bring them back do not improve the ratio.

      I imagine that in the future rec would be dissapeared and almost all poker players know how to play good poker. At this stage rake will kill the game....completely
    • kierantierney
      kierantierney
      Silver
      Joined: 12.08.2011 Posts: 57
      Here, here! Bring back the americans. I wonder did the solid regs that grind SNGs and cash table notice a big drop in ROI after the DOI shutdown. No reg wants to sit down with just other regs, thats a solved game and as said before is only swapping money and paying rake. NL holdem is only +ev if there are fish in the pool (Also many real good player in the US, no offence attended, just bigger player pools needed)
    • JCSeerup
      JCSeerup
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.12.2010 Posts: 1,039
      Originally posted by badgerer
      Originally posted by JCSeerup
      Even if someone makes a softwear that can solve the game and learn it to any player every player won't learn it. It's just like in school, everybody have a chance to be straight A if the just put in the time and effort, but how many does that?

      Learning the NE for every single play won't be possible for a human because it's too complex, but someone might come close enough so that can't be beaten, but bad GTO players will still lose to good GTO players.
      i was thinking something similar to a hud that can basicly tell you what to do as you play. no learning required!

      im curious about the concept of a bad GTO player. its supposed to be optimal, that doesn't leave much grey area. you're either optimal or you're not right?
      I'm pretty sure the sites won't allow a softwear that shows you how to play since it would be pretty much the same as a bot.

      A bad GTO player is someone who might know how to play GTO, but is not very good at it, no one will ever be able to play optimal poker (not in our generation at least), but someone will "always" be better than other, so there can always be improved and there will "always" be an edge.
    • JCSeerup
      JCSeerup
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.12.2010 Posts: 1,039
      Originally posted by kierantierney
      Here, here! Bring back the americans. I wonder did the solid regs that grind SNGs and cash table notice a big drop in ROI after the DOI shutdown. No reg wants to sit down with just other regs, thats a solved game and as said before is only swapping money and paying rake. NL holdem is only +ev if there are fish in the pool (Also many real good player in the US, no offence attended, just bigger player pools needed)
      The main impact the americans will have is the increase in the player pool, so obv. there will be more bad players, but at the same time there will also be more regs. But with more tables running poker get an upswing that way.
    • xmiammiamx
      xmiammiamx
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.12.2011 Posts: 12
      I'm more optimistic than you guys... I played chess for many year at a decent level; nowadays the best chess programs, available to buy everywhere, crush the world number 1. Yet, people still play chess, both live and also online. Even though the average level of play has improved over time due to more resources available and the ability for everyone to have a top quality software at home, there is still plenty of "fishes", because seeing a perfect play do not help you to improve that much if you don't understand it, and because not everybody is actually trying to improve, or they do not have the time, energy, or abilities to do so.

      The problem is more about people cheating using software. Aside of the normal online policy that's preventing to use softwares, chess sites have developed methods for reviewing games that allow them to detect a player who's consistently making moves that "only a computer would make", or who plays with a very inconsistent playstyle. Poker rooms have not developed that yet because the need is not there, but when softwares will be a potential threat to their financial interests they will work hard on something. Also, most people are not going to try to cheat...

      For live chess, the top tournaments scan the players for any electronic devices. For some tournaments, players are isolated from spectators using a soundproof, one-way mirror "cage" (like here http://en.chessbase.com/portals/4/files/news/2007/champions06.jpg) to avoid possible communications with someone having a software. In any case, players are restricted to a "playing area" that is forbidden for them to exit until they've finished their game. With such measures, I think live poker will be alive for a while!
    • patszerdonk
      patszerdonk
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.05.2011 Posts: 834
      1.Online chess played for free i.e no money involved. And still the number of cheaters is quite high. "Longer time control" chess game practically die because too many chess players cheating at it (easy for cheat).

      2. No matter how good sites developed tools to detect cheater, the tools can not know if you using 2 computer (i.e you play on one comp and running robot on another comp)

      3. I doubt someone who capable to build a good poker robot will sell the software. They will using it privately.
    • MERIT900
      MERIT900
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.05.2012 Posts: 44
      Originally posted by PriscoInline
      Originally posted by WinStrat
      Originally posted by Alan883
      I see we are all very optimistic here :f_biggrin:
      Well tell me what is so good about poker these days?
      PokerStrategy? :f_biggrin:

      What is Good about poker today ? We have the Internet - Ergo We can play Poker - Ergo it is good today :)

      As long as we have the game The ability to play it well will come with time