# Convergence of VPIP and PFR of opponents playing zoom

• Bronze
Joined: 05.01.2011
So at a standard 6max table if we have 120 hands on a villain (20 hands from each position) from that table we make certain assumptions from his vpip & pfr stats, i.e he is lag/tag/nit or whatever (obv 120 hands small sample but i'm just giving example).

When playing zoom the positions of villain changes randomly (although it evens out over large samples) so over 120 hands 40 of those hands might have been played from BU and therefore his vp/pfr will be higher so our adjustments to his playstyle might be inaccurate.

Am I correct in my thinking?

Cheers

donut10
• 6 replies
• Bronze
Joined: 05.05.2012
I would not treat those hands differently just because they were played at zoom tables or not. You probably won't know if from those 120 hands, 40 were from button or not while playing. What if the hands were played at regular tables and he received half a dozen monsters UTG? The sample may be as much misleading on zoom as in regular tables.
Curious if someone else has a different opinion, though.

Good luck.
• Bronze
Joined: 05.01.2011

'I would not treat those hands differently just because they were played at zoom tables or not.' This is the point i'm making though i'm sure it does make a difference

For example if i pull up vpip stats on a random villain over 209 hands:

sb: 5%(2/38) bb: 7% (2/27) utg: 18% (7/38) mp: 24% (8/34) co: 23% (9/40) bu: 25% (8/32)

the stats show different sample sizes from each position so overall vpip and pfr and other stats i.e 3B will take a larger sample to converge (compared to normal tables)

i just want to know if i'm right with what i'm thinking
• Bronze
Joined: 14.12.2010
Originally posted by donut10
So overall vpip and pfr and other stats ie 3B will take a larger sample to converge (compared to normal tables).
This.

You need a much bigger sample at zoom the see the real stats of an opponent because you won't have the same amount of hands in each position, which makes a huge difference in the stats, so in zoom the positional stats are even more important than at regular tables.
• Bronze
Joined: 21.12.2008
totally agree
• Bronze
Joined: 05.01.2011
Originally posted by JCSeerup
Originally posted by donut10
So overall vpip and pfr and other stats ie 3B will take a larger sample to converge (compared to normal tables).
This.

You need a much bigger sample at zoom the see the real stats of an opponent because you won't have the same amount of hands in each position, which makes a huge difference in the stats, so in zoom the positional stats are even more important than at regular tables.
Exactly what I was thinking! I think microstakes players who play fast fold games need to be aware of this, especially because if you are moving up relatively quick you will often have less then ~1k hands on regs and this can make quite the difference! I mean its not something i really ever considered before but it is very important to consider and take into account their positional stats before making decisions more so than you would do on standard tables

ty guys
• Bronze
Joined: 25.10.2008
Overall vpivp/pfr is somewhat useless anyway, positional stats + auto notes will give better idea of what's going on faster.

Before 1k hands or so I wouldn't read too much into stats on a reg anyway, certainly had a lot of times where I was either very nitty or very loose after 500 hands or so. after 1k I'd say it gets quite close.