VPIP / PFR replaced with RFI

    • patszerdonk
      patszerdonk
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.05.2011 Posts: 834
      Hello

      I'm thinking to change my HUD stats. Replace VPIP/PFR with "raise first in"/"call 2bet"

      Why?

      1.I noticed that in today cash games, majority of the player open with raise, not limp. And RFI give us more reliable stats than PFR. Most of the player have RFI bigger than PFR. RFI is more precise than PFR.

      2. By using VPIP and PFR we do not know for sure villain range for calling 2bet preflop. TAG with 20/18 usually call wider than 2% preflop. That's why I will use "call 2bet" instead of VPIP.

      So I'm planning to replace VPIP/PFR with RFI/C2b in my HUD.
      Any comments or ideas will be appreciated.
  • 23 replies
    • PumaPerez
      PumaPerez
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.11.2009 Posts: 4,320
      i am using RFI stats from all position in my HUD. however i will still keep my VPIP/PFR stats to determine player type. to find out villain is recreational type you need bigger sample in RFI stats. in VPIP/PFR measuring you can tell almost instantly ;)

      call 2bet stats are in my popup, but to be honest i dont use them often, since on my limit there are not so much players using exact ranges. so it is not so usefull. and also you need very big sample for that.
    • ChoChikun
      ChoChikun
      Silver
      Joined: 15.10.2008 Posts: 291
      I think it is better to keep VPIP/PFR as HUD stats and use RFI/call 2b in popup as positional stats.

      EDIT:
      PumaPerez was faster. :-)
    • patszerdonk
      patszerdonk
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.05.2011 Posts: 834
      Can't we use RFI/Call2bet (overall) as substitute?

      20/5 = TAG
      30/7 = LAG
      5/30 = Fish / Calling Station

      I want to remove VPIP/PFR from HUD. It only viable with pop up. Do anyone see disadvantage of RFI/C2b as substitute? As far as I think, the only disadvante is we have to adapt/habituate with this new stats.

      EDIT: first line, I meant "RFI/Call2bet (average)...
    • patszerdonk
      patszerdonk
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.05.2011 Posts: 834
      I dont like pop up because we have to moving mouse to see the stats
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Originally posted by ChoChikun
      I think it is better to keep VPIP/PFR as HUD stats and use RFI/call 2b in popup as positional stats.

      EDIT:
      PumaPerez was faster. :-)
      Yeah cuz you always check that RFI pop-up when mass tabling.
    • patszerdonk
      patszerdonk
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.05.2011 Posts: 834
      Originally posted by MatejM47
      Originally posted by ChoChikun
      I think it is better to keep VPIP/PFR as HUD stats and use RFI/call 2b in popup as positional stats.

      EDIT:
      PumaPerez was faster. :-)
      Yeah cuz you always check that RFI pop-up when mass tabling.
      hehe :)
      So what do you think Matej? Can you see disadvantage of RFI/Call2bet to substitute VPIP/PFR
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 9,745
      Interesting question.
      VPIP/PFR combine all positions, so perhaps they still have value as a barometer of a player's style.

      If you have room in your HUD, then RFI by position seems to convey a lot of information at once. Besides the raw stats, you can see how positionally aware a player is.

      If you're mass multi-tabling, how often do you ever look at pop-ups?
      You might in marginal spots, but if you've that many tables open, is it worth the time to be checking pop-ups?

      Cheers,
      --VS
    • patszerdonk
      patszerdonk
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.05.2011 Posts: 834
      Originally posted by VorpalF2F
      Interesting question.
      VPIP/PFR combine all positions, so perhaps they still have value as a barometer of a player's style.

      we can combine for all pos also, by using average RFI/C2b. We can see player style also, see my previous post


      If you have room in your HUD, then RFI by position seems to convey a lot of information at once. Besides the raw stats, you can see how positionally aware a player is.

      No I dont want to add more stats. Too much stats is not good

      If you're mass multi-tabling, how often do you ever look at pop-ups?
      You might in marginal spots, but if you've that many tables open, is it worth the time to be checking pop-ups?

      I rarely see pop ups for preflop decision, only vs though regular that I have good sample I see his 4bet call or sothing like that.

      Cheers,
      --VS

      BTW, I see some disadvantage to using RFI/C2bet i.e on table with limper. Both RFI and C2b do not accomodate raise after limper and over limp.
    • Phgrinder
      Phgrinder
      Silver
      Joined: 16.02.2009 Posts: 1,007
      well you can always have a preflop hud like this. just refer to pop-ups for postflop action.

      name / hands / Fld to STL
      VPIP/PFR/EPRFI / MPRFI/ LPRFI
      ISO LIMP / FLAT 2B / 3b IP / 3boop / Fold to 3B

      thats 3 lines with 5 stats for 2nd and 3rd line so thats not such a big preflop hud espeically for SH games
    • Phgrinder
      Phgrinder
      Silver
      Joined: 16.02.2009 Posts: 1,007


      Uploaded with ImageShack.us

      i just made one just now for SH, with pt4 default pop-ups. its too big for FR.
      stats with no abrv are as follows :

      top line
      call steal / VP / PFR / raise with previous limpers / call F 2bet

      bottom line
      Cbet flop / fold to f cbet / check raise flop / fold to check raise flop
    • TJtheTJ
      TJtheTJ
      Silver
      Joined: 12.10.2011 Posts: 6,582
      To add onto this:

      If you have room in your HUD, then RFI by position seems to convey a lot of information at once. Besides the raw stats, you can see how positionally aware a player is.
      Personally I think you should always be able to make room for the RFI stats, as they're just incredibly useful. Not only do they give you an idea of a player's approximate opening range, they also show you if a player is positionally aware or not.

      Also, let's say you're playing for example a 11/9 guy. Of course this player is a super nit. But when you look at just VPIP/PFR (or total RFI and coldcall, whichever you use), you'll expect him to be just that: a nit.

      But it's certainly possible that this guy will open up to 50% or whatever on the button, which you probably won't account for unless you use popups a ton. And I'd imagine most people don't really use the popups often enough. Also, you might expect a 20/18 player to be fairly decent. But if he opens 18% or so from all positions, clearly he's not positionally aware and clearly isn't one of the better players around.

      Again, if you have to use popups, you are pretty likely to miss this information a lot of the time, as you're not going to use a popup every time somebody open raises. And if you do, then it costs you a lot of time and you might as well put them straight on your HUD.

      RFI for every position is the nuts to have on your HUD imo.

      edit: I also still like to keep VPIP/PFR on there, not sure about switching them with total RFI/cold call.
    • patszerdonk
      patszerdonk
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.05.2011 Posts: 834
      Originally posted by Phgrinder
      well you can always have a preflop hud like this. just refer to pop-ups for postflop action.

      name / hands / Fld to STL
      VPIP/PFR/EPRFI / MPRFI/ LPRFI
      ISO LIMP / FLAT 2B / 3b IP / 3boop / Fold to 3B

      thats 3 lines with 5 stats for 2nd and 3rd line so thats not such a big preflop hud espeically for SH games
      Nice stats....
      I just have to add CBflop/fCBflop/CBturn/fCBturn.
      BTW, how do you get position RFI? (see red color above)
      I dont have it on my default PT4 stats
    • patszerdonk
      patszerdonk
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.05.2011 Posts: 834
      edit: I also still like to keep VPIP/PFR on there, not sure about switching them with total RFI/cold call.


      Yeah, there is problem to switching traditional VPIP/PFR to RFI/c2b or RFI/cc i.e these stats do not count when someone raise limper(s).
    • Phgrinder
      Phgrinder
      Silver
      Joined: 16.02.2009 Posts: 1,007
      Originally posted by patszerdonk
      Originally posted by Phgrinder
      well you can always have a preflop hud like this. just refer to pop-ups for postflop action.

      name / hands / Fld to STL
      VPIP/PFR/EPRFI / MPRFI/ LPRFI
      ISO LIMP / FLAT 2B / 3b IP / 3boop / Fold to 3B

      thats 3 lines with 5 stats for 2nd and 3rd line so thats not such a big preflop hud espeically for SH games
      Nice stats....
      I just have to add CBflop/fCBflop/CBturn/fCBturn.
      BTW, how do you get position RFI? (see red color above)
      I dont have it on my default PT4 stats
      just use RFI, and on the right side box look for positional drop down button. and choose EP MP CU BTN respectively
    • Phgrinder
      Phgrinder
      Silver
      Joined: 16.02.2009 Posts: 1,007
      Originally posted by patszerdonk
      edit: I also still like to keep VPIP/PFR on there, not sure about switching them with total RFI/cold call.


      Yeah, there is problem to switching traditional VPIP/PFR to RFI/c2b or RFI/cc i.e these stats do not count when someone raise limper(s).
      u really dun have to worry about that, since you have the ISO ( raise over limpers PT4 stat ).

      u can just see imediately if the guy likes to iso raise wide or what not. and just stick to RFI for positional ranges
    • patszerdonk
      patszerdonk
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.05.2011 Posts: 834
      ^^^ thanks very much. I think my problem solved :f_biggrin: :f_biggrin: :f_biggrin:
    • Flashman1849
      Flashman1849
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.07.2011 Posts: 78
      Thanks for all these tips - I've provisionally added RFI (though I prefer to call it OR for 'open-raise') by position (and 'cold-call 2bet pre-flop', which seems as if it could be useful) to my HUD, just because it's somewhat irritating having to open the pop-up constantly. I can't see myself removing VPIP or PFR, perhaps for sentimental and historical reasons (!), but mainly because they give such a tried-and-true method for instantly categorising each opponent.

      Loving PT4, by the way - I upgraded after being prompted by the ad here on PokerStrategy, and it runs like a dream compared with PT3. The NoteTracker is pretty impressive also.

      Was rather amusing moving down to NL2 for a single-tabling session for testing purposes as I adjusted my HUD - those players are indeed pretty bad; I really felt like giving them advice, and had to resist the urge to type in 'Don't let me steal your blinds so often - call or raise me!'. At least for once I managed to make a profit at NL2...
    • ChoChikun
      ChoChikun
      Silver
      Joined: 15.10.2008 Posts: 291
      If he call you or raise he will lose more. :D
    • lnternet
      lnternet
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.06.2012 Posts: 782
      I came to the same conclusion and dont have VPIP or PFR in my HUD
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