Some beginner questions

    • SvetlanR
      SvetlanR
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.08.2010 Posts: 1
      Greetings,

      I was wondering, if we play vs a fish fit or fold in 3bet pots, is it still greatly +EV? Assume we have AKo, 3bet and fish calls from position. We only continue if we hit TPTK or better and check/fold everything else, is this ok?

      Another question is, is it generally ok to 3b isolate fishes with broadways and play pretty much fit or fold postflop? How about if we call behind with hand like JTo vs a player who has PFR ~30 and play fit or fold postflop. We are expecting him to cbet pretty much always and we fold if we dont hit top pair or draw.

      Another question is playing SC's OOP with stationish players and no much room to make semibluffs work often, would it still be +EV generally or not? How about drawing straight on flush draw boards IP vs fishy player, should I rather fold and wait for rainbow board?

      Also regarding draws, I have lately wondering I might be overestimating my implied odds in many spots. Lets say we play vs semiunknown player (ie. maybe 50 hands of him) but we know he is fishy. We cant draw many conclusions of his barrel tendencies etc. and it makes it harder to semibluff as he will call pretty light too. Now question is, if I am unsure about taking pot down sometimes on later streets as a semibluff, should I not draw at all? I feel like otherwise drawing becomes -EV, especially with flush draws as players will become supercareful when it hits. Do you guys always play your draws or do you fold lots of them and wait for good spot to play them?

      And last question is, how essential it is to make occasional 3bet bluffs preflop for a players winrate? How about c-betting as a bluff, is it ok if we only cbet supergood board like A72r and check/fold board like Q75fd vs stationish player?

      Also if you have any advice on how to play on very loose fishy table that would be nice. I am just wondering could I be winning by playing very ABC style in loose tables and basically never bluffing.
  • 4 replies
    • metza
      metza
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.01.2012 Posts: 2,220
      Originally posted by SvetlanR
      Greetings,

      I was wondering, if we play vs a fish fit or fold in 3bet pots, is it still greatly +EV? Assume we have AKo, 3bet and fish calls from position. We only continue if we hit TPTK or better and check/fold everything else, is this ok?

      It depends. If they are the kind of fish that we easily get their stack when we do hit, then its definitely +EV. It is important to be aware that there is not just one kind of "fish" that we can lump in the same category. Many fish also play fit or fold in 3b pots, so against these fish it is not highest EV to just play fit or fold since you don't win a lot when you hit as they are folding often. Many fish playing fit or fold do not pay much attention to bet sizing so on dry flops you can bet 1/3 pot and they fold if they haven't hit something.Also, I would not just look to hit, I would check/call AK on boards like QJx unless I knew the fish to be very passive.

      Another question is, is it generally ok to 3b isolate fishes with broadways and play pretty much fit or fold postflop? How about if we call behind with hand like JTo vs a player who has PFR ~30 and play fit or fold postflop. We are expecting him to cbet pretty much always and we fold if we dont hit top pair or draw.

      JTo doesn't flop well that often and when we hit a J or T we can't always be sure our hand is best vs 30% PFR. If we fold vs 100% cbet whenever we miss we will be losing long run for sure calling JT here.

      Another question is playing SC's OOP with stationish players and no much room to make semibluffs work often, would it still be +EV generally or not? How about drawing straight on flush draw boards IP vs fishy player, should I rather fold and wait for rainbow board?

      A lot of the value in SCs come from fold equity, because often they do not win at showdown and vs stationish players you get to showdown a lot. however, when you do flop draws you can generally consider yourself to have good implied odds against these players. Multiway pots are best for SCs as you generally get better pot odds and implied odds.

      Also regarding draws, I have lately wondering I might be overestimating my implied odds in many spots. Lets say we play vs semiunknown player (ie. maybe 50 hands of him) but we know he is fishy. We cant draw many conclusions of his barrel tendencies etc. and it makes it harder to semibluff as he will call pretty light too. Now question is, if I am unsure about taking pot down sometimes on later streets as a semibluff, should I not draw at all? I feel like otherwise drawing becomes -EV, especially with flush draws as players will become supercareful when it hits. Do you guys always play your draws or do you fold lots of them and wait for good spot to play them?

      Depends on the pot odds. If you are getting the right price on a call, then make the call vs any opponent. If you have implied odds, factor that in as well. If as you say players are "supercareful" when draw hits then you don't have great implied odds, however you should then be able to bluff when another draw comes in that didn't hit you.

      And last question is, how essential it is to make occasional 3bet bluffs preflop for a players winrate? How about c-betting as a bluff, is it ok if we only cbet supergood board like A72r and check/fold board like Q75fd vs stationish player?

      Depends at what limits. If your opponents are huge stations and don't fold to 3bet bluffs anyway then 3bet bluffing is -EV. If you are facing a ton of guys that fold to 3bets very often then you are passing up a lot of money by not 3betting as a bluff to exploit their weakness.As for cbets, when cbetting as a bluff you basically just want it to get through often enough. When you bet 0.5x pot, you need to win 1/3 times to breakeven. If your cbet wins the pot more than this you will be winning money by cbet bluffing. For 1x pot, it needs to work 1/2 times. The formula for success rate needed is Betsize / (Potsize+Betsize)However, this is just to show instant profit with the cbet. If you also have equity, which will almost always be the case, then the cbet is even more profitable.Some fish have extremely low fold to cbet %, and against them you should rarely to never cbet as a bluff, and widen the range of hands that you cbet for value.

      Also if you have any advice on how to play on very loose fishy table that would be nice. I am just wondering could I be winning by playing very ABC style in loose tables and basically never bluffing.

      Yes, against a bunch of very loose fishy players, playing tight and aggresively value betting your strong hands will be the best play. If they are loose and passive just keep betting into them with strong hands like TPTK but reevaluate when they raise you. Passive players who like to call will rarely raise anything worse than 2pair. But also keep an eye out for fit or fold fish because many fish will just check fold when they miss and you can print money by cbetting as a bluff vs these guys.

    • TinoLaan
      TinoLaan
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.10.2011 Posts: 6,411
      Hey SvetlanR,

      First of all, welcome to the forum!

      metza already covered everything very nicely. Thanks metza! :)

      One thing I would like to add is that everything always depends. You need to evaluate every situation separately. So if it's max EV to play fit/fold in one 3bet pot, it may be max EV to cbet with air in another 3bet pot.

      Bottom line is, don't take any advice and just use it as a rule. There are no "rules" in poker, as almost every situation is different and needs to be evaluated as such. Hopefully that made sense :)

      Hopefully we'll see you around more often!

      Kind regards,
      Tino
    • UPAY4DINNER
      UPAY4DINNER
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.09.2009 Posts: 21,926
      Wow, thanks a lot metza!

      Welcome aboard SvetlanR!
    • DirtyDunton
      DirtyDunton
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.07.2012 Posts: 13
      Developing your reading skills in my opinion is the most important thing. When you can accurately call what a player is holding in their hands, then you know you got them. This is something that take awhile to develop, but when you do you can truly dominate games. I try not to get involved in pots when I don't have a great read on my opponent unless I'm holding a monster and even then i'm not very comfortable with it. I prefer knowing what my opponent is holding so I can take his chips when the opportunity presents itself. 3 betting is a wonderful thing.