Range & ICM trainer

    • sc2zerker
      sc2zerker
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.12.2012 Posts: 162
      I've have read all the basic and bronze articles.

      Just started using ICM Trainer to test myself and found some interesting stats i dont understand.

      1) Why does your range increase so dramatically when you get closers to the blinds? From what I understand it's because you have position but a detialed explanation would be nice. (a link maybe?)

      2) An example

      9 :spade: 2 :heart: on the SB, Everyone folded. 9-10 RING NL Holdem

      ICM Trainer said to push, When every has folded. Is that intended as a semi-bluff? to steal blinds? 9high is bad but 8/10 people have already folded and now your vs 1 person. How is 9 high profitable?

      3) ICM trainer has a 1-100 range what does that mean?

      4) In ICM Trainer you can copy to editor, When it's in the editor it will tell each persons position and their given ranges. Another example

      -SB All-in's with 1700chips, blinds are 100/200 9-10 RING NL Holdem
      -You are on BB with A :spade: 5 :heart: , ICM said to push, I would normally fold. The ranges are Ax+ in this situation for BB.
      -So i'm expected to make a profit in the long run here? Wouldn't they normally have a AA or KK in this situation? Is it because they have less than 12BB and are getting desperate?

      Thanks for any help anyone can offer. Also a video on ICM trainer and how to use it properly would be great. Or even an article. All the video and articles i've found are in (German?) i think.
  • 7 replies
    • RasTweet
      RasTweet
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.12.2009 Posts: 4,553
      Hey sc2zerker

      I never use ICM trainer because I'm a cashgame player. But I'm sure people will help you out with your questions.

      I want to take a 'guess' though. 1&2 I think it is because less people have to fold. You only have 1 dude behind you and you are sure the others are out of the pot yet. And because there is only 1 guy left you want to put pressure on the guy.

      3) 1-100 is percentages I think. So from 1% to 100% that seems logical to me, but I might be horribly wrong.

      Best regards

      RasTweet
    • sc2zerker
      sc2zerker
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.12.2012 Posts: 162
      What exactly is 1%-100% though, Even on the chart for ranges it's usually a 13x13 chart.
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,910
      Originally posted by sc2zerker
      What exactly is 1%-100% though, Even on the chart for ranges it's usually a 13x13 chart.
      The % is the fraction of the hands that you push.
      It is based on the number hand combinations of hands.

      If you have equilab, you can see exactly what those percentages mean.

      The factors that make a hand a push or a fold are:
        # of players behind you.
        Relative stack sizes
        Your own stack size
        The stack sizes of everyone behind you.

      So 92o in the SB will be a fold if you and BB both have mid-stacks compared to the others at the table, but it would be a push if you have 2 big blinds left.

      Bear in mind that ICM Trainer is "strictly by the numbers"
      I makes no allowance for how loose or tight the other players are.

      So for example, if you hold AJs ICM might say "fold" but if the two players behind you are v v tight, you could push for *that* reason and expect a fold.

      Notes rule!

      Best of luck,
      --VS
    • sc2zerker
      sc2zerker
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.12.2012 Posts: 162
      Thanks for the info!

      I noticed that when you have 0-1 You only get AA and KK and 99-100 you get mostly 2,3
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,910
      Oh, NOW I get what you mean.

      (I'm slow, but once I get it, I'm OK).

      The Handrange slider is where you set the hand range you want to test yourself on.

      The LOWER the number the better the hand.
      Think of the percentage as the "Top xx Percent".

      So if you set it to 0 on the left slider, and 50 on the right slider, you will only be shown the top 50 percent of hands.

      If you set it to 10 on the left and 50 on the right, you will get the top 50 percent, but not the top 10 .

      According to Equilab, this is:
      66-33, A8s-A2s, K9s-K2s, Q9s-Q2s, J4s+, T6s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, ATo-A2o, KJo-K5o, Q7o+, J7o+, T7o+, 98o

      I have always just left this slider on 0 to 100, but dropping the top 10 might make the test tougher, because those are almost always obvious pushes.

      cheers,
      --VS
    • mkjmkjmkj
      mkjmkjmkj
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.02.2012 Posts: 159
      im a cashgame player but i do play a tournemnt once in a while.

      if you want to see if a push how wide you can try to put these equations into excel

      and play a little and try put some numbers in on how much you think people fold and see what equity you need and then use equilab to see how wide you can push.
      you can use the hand range calculator in equilab.
      it doesnt take ICM into acount but it will give you an rough idea.

      EV=fold%*(BB+sb+ante)+call%*(stack+bb+sb+ante)*(2*equity-1)

      equity= 1/2 - fold%*(BB+sb+ante)/call%*(stack+bb+sb+ante)*2
      i did a bit fast so i hope the equaitions arent wrong.

      if you want the total folds for fx 3 players behind you calculate it like this
      folding range percentages to the power of 3 fold^3
      and for 4 players to the power of 4
    • activee
      activee
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.04.2011 Posts: 220
      It seems wierd to me that ICM trainner tells you to push 92 o on the SB since I remember this software to be pretty tight. I guess your stack was really small.

      I don't get what you mean with semi bluff ? Semi ? if you push 92'o it's just because you are on the SB and there is only 1 person to call after you who has to have good cards to call you and more often than not he won't. There is no semi, you just plan on make him fold.

      Imagine that situation : Gunter is in the SB with 72 and the BB has AA. They are both 100 bb deep. Gunter open raise pre, BB 3bet. So gunter think "yeah i'm gonna go all in as a semi bluff". Unfortunatly BB call and the flop comes 777 A K. You didn't semi anything. It's just a difference of language between you and me I guess.

      ICM is good as far as I can remember. but once you get the basis you have to deviate from it. The tighter your opponents are the looser you should be. And pay attention to stack size. You ain't gonna open shove 92 with 30 bb on the SB (unless of course your plan is to troll around).

      Check M-ratio or smtg. There is an article somewhere on this site I used when I started and it's actually pretty good for tournies.