NL SSS by IngolPoker

    • IngolPoker
      IngolPoker
      Black
      Joined: 05.09.2006 Posts: 10,467
      Hi,

      this is going to be a thread where i post the results from my coaching session, post interesting hands and try to discuss a few strategic questions i talked about in the coaching.

      First the results :)

      I played 464 hands and lost 1,70$ (or 17BB)

      This was the hand i lost the most on :(

      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $0.10(BB) Replayer Game#8166667017

      SB ($2)
      BB ($12)
      UTG ($2.15)
      UTG+1 ($2.25)
      UTG+2 ($13.30)
      MP1 ($1.15)
      Hero ($1.90)
      CO ($6.65)
      BTN ($1.60)

      Dealt to Hero A:heart: K:diamond:

      fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.40, fold, fold, fold, call,

      FLOP ($0.85) J:club: 7:heart: K:heart:

      check, Hero bets $0.60, UTG raises to $1.20, Hero raises to $1.50, UTG calls $0.30,

      TURN ($3.85) J:club: 7:heart: K:heart: Q:club:



      RIVER ($3.85) J:club: 7:heart: K:heart: Q:club: 5:diamond:



      UTG shows 7:club: 7:diamond:
      (Flop 92.9%, Turn 90.9%)

      Hero shows A:heart: K:diamond:
      (Flop 7.1%, Turn 9.1%)

      UTG wins $3.50

      I raise AK preflop and go broke on the flop with top pair top kicker. Standard play, but unlucky this time.
      Lets see if the opponent was right to call before the flop hoping to hit a set:

      He hits his set in about 1 out of 8 times. So he loses his 40ct preflop investment 7 out of 8 times because he has to fold to my contibet without a set.
      1 out of 8 times he wins my stack.
      If we run the situation 8 times he loses 7x40ct and wins 1x190ct, so overall he loses 90ct, 11 ct on average.
      Bad play on his part :)

      Of course my assumptions are a bit simplistic but the result is correct. The real result is even worse for him because i will not always lose my stack because i dont go broke on every flop.


      Another interesting hand was the following:

      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $0.10(BB) Replayer Game#8165977180

      SB ($3.90)
      Hero ($1.75)
      UTG ($10.65)
      UTG+1 ($2.25)
      UTG+2 ($2.45)
      MP1 ($2)
      MP2 ($9.75)
      CO ($4)
      BTN ($5.60)

      Dealt to Hero 8:diamond: 4:diamond:

      fold, fold, fold, fold, check, fold, fold, check,

      FLOP ($0.25) Q:diamond: K:diamond: J:club:

      Hero bets $0.20, CO folds, , Hero shows 8:diamond: 4:diamond: ,

      Hero wins $0.25


      I get a freeplay with 84 in diamond against a CO poster.
      I bet the flop because

      a) my opponent has shown weakness preflop. If he would have high cards he would typically have raised. Often he will have missed the flop and has to fold
      b) if he calls, i still have a flushdraw to improve to the best hand.

      So, when can we bet the flop though we have nothing?

      The opponent must have shown weakness. Its ideal if he completed the SB and checked to us in the BB on the flop, because he showed weakness twice.

      A few more factors (though often hard to see) are
      a) the opponent shouldnt be a callingstation
      b) he should dislike the flop

      I am not saying that you should bet any flop with any cards when you are HU in a freeplay. But given some circumstances it can be a very profitable play.

      I would appreciate a few opinions and a discussion here :)



      Of course, you shall also use this thread to post your feedback.
      What is good, what is terrible, where can i improve?
      What are you missing in this thread in the reviews?

      I surely forgot a lot now, so just go ahead and write sth :)
  • 161 replies
    • TheBu11d0g
      TheBu11d0g
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.07.2008 Posts: 2,019
      First of all i thought it was a great coaching session especially as it was on a different platform(FTP) and a different level (NL10). I found it very interesting personally as it is the level i play at right now.
      Your explanations were clear and understandable and your english was very good, so no worries there :D

      Secondly, i just wanted to explain the reasoning for me dropping down to NL5, although not recommended by you, was because i had dropped my roll down to $21 through mostly bad beats but also through bad post flop play by myself, and i thought if i continued on NL10 at that time i would have gone broke if the downward slide had continued.

      I thoughly understand your explanation as to why i shouldn't do it but at the time (a) i didn't realise it was a bad idea due to the buyin rule and (b) i honestly thought it was the correct thing to do.

      But like i said originally a great 1st coaching and i appreciated the advice you gave me especially re:NL5.
    • Leo
      Leo
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.01.2008 Posts: 4,512
      The best of luck IngolPoker, hope you had a nice first session ;)

      Leo
    • harleytopper
      harleytopper
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.09.2007 Posts: 680
      I like how you explained first hand. I found that analyzing hands and figuring out that move was EV+ helps a lot.

      Second hand i think really depends on opponents stats. This flop is terrible against loose opponents that will call you with anything exept air. It is easier to hit limping range than miss. But this bet is good as blocking IMO. If he is not agressive he will call your bet with second pair or draw instead of larger bet after your check.
    • IngolPoker
      IngolPoker
      Black
      Joined: 05.09.2006 Posts: 10,467
      If he has random cards he only hits the flop in about 33% of the time, otherwise he folds.
      You also have to consider that he didnt limp, but check his posted blind! He has a nearly random hand BUT we can rule out big pockets or broadway cards since he would have raised them preflop.

      So this flop probably doesnt help him.

      "It is easier to hit limping range than miss"
      This is not true, see my first sentence :)

      I totally agree though, that its better to have an opponent who is capable of folding 22 here :)
    • harleytopper
      harleytopper
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.09.2007 Posts: 680
      By "It is easier to hit limping range than miss" i mean Q K J flop. Main limping ranges is Ax Qx Kx and PP. But posting blind in CO changes situation... (didn't noticed).
    • TheBu11d0g
      TheBu11d0g
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.07.2008 Posts: 2,019
      Sorry i missed the end of the coaching but my wireless connection went down :(

      Would you be able to explain about starting to use odds please as i think it would be useful to start using these as im about to move up to NL25.

      Regards,

      Steve
    • IngolPoker
      IngolPoker
      Black
      Joined: 05.09.2006 Posts: 10,467
      Let me start with the results again (i am so proud :D )

      I played 413 hands and made a profit of 5,30$.
      My VPIP and PFR were 6,5 in this session.

      My biggest winning hand was quite a lucky one:

      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $0.10(BB) Replayer Game#8233867989

      Hero ($1.45)
      BB ($2.85)
      UTG ($4.20)
      UTG+1 ($0.95)
      UTG+2 ($5.65)
      MP1 ($10.30)
      MP2 ($2.15)
      CO ($3.70)
      BTN ($3.75)

      Dealt to Hero K:diamond: Q:spade:

      call, UTG+2 raises to $0.20, fold, fold, fold, call, Hero raises to $1.45, fold, call, call, fold,

      FLOP ($4.15) 7:diamond: 5:club: 4:diamond:



      TURN ($4.15) 7:diamond: 5:club: 4:diamond: 9:club:



      RIVER ($4.15) 7:diamond: 5:club: 4:diamond: 9:club: Q:diamond:



      Hero shows K:diamond: Q:spade:
      (Flop 23.2%, Turn 9.5%)

      UTG+1 shows A:club: 2:club:
      (Flop 31.5%, Turn 35.7%)

      UTG+2 shows T:heart: T:diamond:
      (Flop 45.3%, Turn 54.8%)

      Hero wins $3.75

      So what happened in this hand?
      I had KQ in late position, where i would raise it if noone raises before me. Now there is a minraiser and a coldcaller. As SSSer you ignore the minraises and treat them as limpers because a minraise is often a weak hand like a small pocket or 78s which wants to build a small pot.
      I am not worried about the coldcaller either, because he did not reraise as he would do with very strong hands.
      So my decision is: reraise! how much?
      A "normal" raise would be 80ct (3x 20 + 20 for the coldcaller). But this would be more than half of my stack, so it is better to push directly.



      My biggest losing hand was also very interesting and led to some discussions which we can maybe continue here :)

      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $0.10(BB) Replayer Game#8233724612

      SB ($4.35)
      BB ($10.10)
      Hero ($2.20)
      UTG+1 ($1.85)
      UTG+2 ($6.50)
      MP1 ($2)
      MP2 ($22.90)
      CO ($5.35)
      BTN ($10.20)

      Dealt to Hero K:diamond: A:spade:

      fold, fold, fold, CO raises to $0.30, fold, SB raises to $0.70, Hero raises to $2.20, fold, call,

      FLOP ($4.70) T:club: 8:heart: 4:spade:



      TURN ($4.70) T:club: 8:heart: 4:spade: 8:spade:



      RIVER ($4.70) T:club: 8:heart: 4:spade: 8:spade: 8:diamond:



      SB shows 9:spade: 9:heart:
      (Flop 74.4%, Turn 86.4%)

      Hero shows K:diamond: A:spade:
      (Flop 25.6%, Turn 13.6%)

      SB wins $4.25

      What the hell was i doing?? There was a raise and a reraise, so i should normally fold AK.
      But there were reasons to push here:
      The raiser and reraiser were both in late position, that means that the raiser can have quite a lose range because he might be trying to steal.
      So i am definitely not worried about him. What about the reraiser?
      He also sees that the raiser is sitting in late position, so he also knows that he might have a lose range and will therefore be a bit loser himself.

      For the more advanced players i will present a few numbers :)

      I give the orinial raiser a range somewhere around 15%, i.e. A8s+, AT+, any pocketpair and a few hands like KJ and suited conncetors. I assume a range of 99+, AJ+ for the reraiser.
      Against these ranges i have more than 33% and i have more than 50% against every single range, so an allin is good.
      The result of course changes if you assume different ranges for your opponent, at the moment i was played i thought they are lose enough. You can of course also just fold and wait for better spots to move allin :)

      Now i come back to a more basic topic. Odds&outs!
      First of all, a link to the article: http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/no-limit/993/

      Now that i reread the article, i cant imagine what i can still write here :P
      Just read the article and if you need any further explanation or articles you can ask in this thread again.

      At the end i have my lifetime graph for you as i promised:




      You can see that in the lower limits you really do not play for making money! You play there to learn the strategy, experience downswings, learn to deal with them, see if you like playing poker, improve you understanding of poker.....and so on.
      If you are playing very well, survived downswings (that are inevitable!!!!) and built your bankroll you will automatically move to higher limits where the amounts of money become interesing.
      Btw: sorry for deleting the exact amounts, i dont want to post them here and they are of no use for your career in poker :)

      If a mod could enlargen the picture i would be grateful. (i am too dumb for it ;) )



      Of course you can (and shall) use this thread also for positive/negative feedback !
    • SirBoberg
      SirBoberg
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.04.2008 Posts: 68
      Hi
      We was talking about my saw flop, vpip, pfr and ats.
      This is what i found out:

      On 0,25/0,5$ i have:
      Saw Flop 9,3%
      Vpip 8,4%
      Pfr 7,2%
      Ats 15%
      BB/100 hands = 3,86

      On 0,5/1$ i have:Saw Flop 8,2%
      Saw Flop 8,2%
      Vpip 10,3%
      Pfr 9%
      Ats 25%
      BB/100 hands = 0,39

      I think i understand what you was talking about the gap being to big between Saw flop and Vpip. Maybe this is because i have started to steal and protect the blinds more often on 0,5/1$, i really dont know.

      Could you please say something about this stats......

      SirBoberg
    • IngolPoker
      IngolPoker
      Black
      Joined: 05.09.2006 Posts: 10,467
      Hi,

      The gap cant come because of you stealing or defending more! That would increase VPIP and PFR simultaniously.
      The gap must come from
      a)completing SB
      b)limping
      c) coldcalling

      stop it!! only complete pp's from time to time.


      If you make a close move, reconsider if it is really a good one :) If necessary, post it in the forum.

      And dont be worried because of the winrate, your samplesize is not even good enough to determine the winrate on 2bb/100 exactly.

      10/9/25 isnt too bad but you might limp a bit less and steal a bit more often :)
    • IngolPoker
      IngolPoker
      Black
      Joined: 05.09.2006 Posts: 10,467
      Someone was asking where to find databases:
      http://www.pokerstrategy.com/forum/board.php?boardid=1425
    • SirBoberg
      SirBoberg
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.04.2008 Posts: 68
      HI
      When you say completing you mean call or raise from SB?

      On 10058 hands from SB i have:
      called 66 times and have a profit 59$
      raised 158 hands with a profit 315$

      From non blinds i have called just 115 hands and are -0,65$

      You say that protecting and stealing blinds would increase VPIP and PFR simultaniously. Vpip has increased 1,9% and Pfr 1,8%, is that not simultaniously???

      I got the feeling that i have raised preflop and folded to a reraise to many times, any other suggestions.

      Maybe its just a bad streak or luck. I know its just 10000 hands but i want to evaluate them correctly and learn what stats to look out for.

      SirBoberg
    • IngolPoker
      IngolPoker
      Black
      Joined: 05.09.2006 Posts: 10,467
      Originally posted by SirBoberg
      HI
      When you say completing you mean call or raise from SB? completing means filling up the SB so that you paid 1 BB preflop. "mp calls, co calls, sb completes, bb checks"

      On 10058 hands from SB i have:
      called 66 times and have a profit 59$ nice, but maybe folding some hands and maybe raising others would have been better :)
      raised 158 hands with a profit 315$

      From non blinds i have called just 115 hands and are -0,65$ not so nice, may be variance, may be bad play :) why dont you check out on these hands? Though you didnt lose a lot ^^

      You say that protecting and stealing blinds would increase VPIP and PFR simultaniously. Vpip has increased 1,9% and Pfr 1,8%, is that not simultaniously???
      i didnt mean increase compared to the other limit. lets pretend you didnt play a single hand, and your stats are therefore 0/0. Now you raise 1 hand. Then your VPIP is 100 and your PFR is 100. So they both went up by raising. The VPIP also goes up if you raise. If you raised this one hand and foldet to a reraise your VPIP and PFR are also 100.
      I got the feeling that i have raised preflop and folded to a reraise to many times, any other suggestions.

      Maybe its just a bad streak or luck. I know its just 10000 hands but i want to evaluate them correctly and learn what stats to look out for.

      SirBoberg
    • TribunCaesar
      TribunCaesar
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.04.2007 Posts: 13,264
      Hi SirBoberg,

      I suggest to start posting hands where you were unsure how to play in order to discuss with other members and get evaluations by our judges. That helped me a lot.

      Best regards,
      TribunCaesar
    • SirBoberg
      SirBoberg
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.04.2008 Posts: 68
      Feels great to have someone to ask when your in a downswing. For me its all about trying to learn to evaluate the stats and played hands. I replay many of my hands in Pokeroffice.

      Finally justice comes my way, todays result...
      plus 132$, BB/hour 8.12

      Yes i will try to post some hands for evaluation.

      Thanks again
    • IngolPoker
      IngolPoker
      Black
      Joined: 05.09.2006 Posts: 10,467
      Time for my review :) sorry for the small delay

      Lets start with the statistics again, i played 401 hands and won 5,95$ which is nearly 3 stacks.
      My VPIP and PFR were 4,7.

      Hmmmmm now i wanted to start with my biggest losing hand, but ...well...ok, i post it :D

      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $0.10(BB) Replayer Game#8263079201

      SB ($9.90)
      Hero ($1.95)
      UTG ($1.70)
      UTG+1 ($12.95)
      UTG+2 ($3.45)
      MP1 ($5.05)
      MP2 ($17.65)
      CO ($10.75)
      BTN ($6.95)

      Dealt to Hero 2:spade: 9:diamond:

      UTG raises to $0.40, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold,

      UTG wins $0.25

      I fold 29o to an UTG raise...i didnt lose more than 1BB on any hand today :P


      Hopefully i have a hand where i won more than 1BB....ah yes, there is one:

      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $0.10(BB) Replayer Game#8263047948

      SB ($10.15)
      Hero ($2.35)
      UTG ($9.95)
      UTG+1 ($15.10)
      UTG+2 ($2)
      MP1 ($10)
      MP2 ($2.10)
      CO ($5)
      BTN ($4.50)

      Dealt to Hero 3:diamond: A:diamond:

      fold, fold, check, fold, fold, fold, check,

      FLOP ($0.25) 3:club: 3:spade: T:diamond:

      Hero bets $0.20, MP1 calls $0.20,

      TURN ($0.65) 3:club: 3:spade: T:diamond: 6:spade:

      Hero bets $0.50, MP1 calls $0.50,

      RIVER ($1.65) 3:club: 3:spade: T:diamond: 6:spade: 5:heart:

      Hero bets $1.55, MP1 calls $1.55,

      MP1 shows 9:heart: 9:spade:
      (Flop 8.9%, Turn 4.5%)

      Hero shows 3:diamond: A:diamond:
      (Flop 91.1%, Turn 95.5%)

      Hero wins $4.30



      I flop trips with an Ace kicker, bet 3 times and the opponent calls me 3 times with a pocket pair. So where is the interesting part of the hand?
      Its about the general play with very strong hands in a freeplay:

      First of all....what is our goal? Right...we want to maximise our expectation. How do we win most money? Right...we go all in and get our full stack payed off.
      Ok, but where is the problem?
      The problem is that the pot is very small and our stack relatively big. So we need a betting sequence that gets us all in without overbetting.
      We need (!) to bet 3x nearly potsize.
      As we cant rely on our opponent to bet, we have to bet ourselves. If only one street goes check-check we have no chance to get our money in and miss a win of 1,55(the last bet).
      So even if you say "i want him to bluff", be aware that he would have to bluff in 10 or 15 hands to make the same profit as you get when you get one single (!!!!) payoff.
      This should make clear that bet, bet, bet is the way to go.





      We also talked about calling/completing with pocket pairs.
      So...when is this profitable?

      You can call with a pp on the button (and only on the button) if there are 3 or more limpers in front of you. If you were in the CO the danger of a raise behind you would be too high to call.
      When can you complete? I would recommend to complete pocketpairs with 2 limpers or more in front of you.

      Note that you have to play "no set, no bet" on the flop. Do not call any bets with 55 if the board is 433, the danger of someone having a higher pp is just too high. Also a lot of overcards can destroy your hand.



      I know, you gave me a few others ideas what to write about here but i feel that the text would become too long and i prefer talking about these topics next friday in my review :)


      Also, i am still waiting for a couple of questions on "odds&outs", or did all of you totally understand the article and have absolutely no uncertainities? :)

      Besides, feedback on my coachings is still very much appreciated! So if you have any suggestions of how to improve the quality of the coaching, tell me.

      If you are totally happy with the way it is, tell me, too. :)

      Wish you the best of luck at the tables

      Max
    • TribunCaesar
      TribunCaesar
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.04.2007 Posts: 13,264
      Nice write up! I have a question to odds and outs. Are reverse implied tilt odds dangerous for our game? :D

      edit: You can stop me from asking stupid questions by posting questions yourself
      /edit
      :D
    • JoJo0606
      JoJo0606
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.02.2008 Posts: 49
      Joined the coaching for the last 40min.

      Had tons of fun. I think all questions were answered in a way that every1 understood. So yeah i think ill come to your coachings again from time to time. It was that good :D

      Anyway i was not fast enough with my questing in coaching (as it was ending) so like you said im posting my question here.

      How many hands do you need to have on a player before you can steal profitably (if he has more then 80% fold BB to steal)?? Im asking becouse even with 500 on a player he would only be on the BB about 50 times and even then there is a posibility that a steal raise only happened about 15-20 times.
    • TheBu11d0g
      TheBu11d0g
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.07.2008 Posts: 2,019
      Hi ya Max,

      Just to let you know that my questions i had regarding odds was answered very well as well as very clearly.

      The only other question that came to mind was the one i mentioned about playing with stats and stealing. I know what basic stats to use like vp$ip, pfr and af, but i just wanted clarification on what certain values to look if that makes sense :D . As an instance, when using stats to steal you are looking for a vp$ip of x or greater and a pfr of x or greater etc.

      Hope this makes sense and if not then please accept my apologies.

      By the way another great coaching apart from you being harrassed about your SNG play. Some people eh :D
    • IngolPoker
      IngolPoker
      Black
      Joined: 05.09.2006 Posts: 10,467
      @tribun, thanks for the advice but i prefer you asking stupid questions :tongue:

      to answer your question: yes, this is very dangerous for our game! Tilt costs so much money and you should avoid situations that drive you into tilt.
      For example if you just began playing SSS and get mad when losing a double stack you can play very tightly and just fold hands like TT or AJ preflop, also in late position when you have a double stack. (i will find an answer for any question :D )

      @Jojo:

      I like the way you are making your own thoughts. Everything you say is right and therefore you actually need a couple of thousand hands to get a good certainity for that statistic.
      But you can also use other stats when determining if a steal is good or not, for example the vpip or the PFR. If your opponent has a VPIP around 10, you can always steal against him. (this partly answers bulldogs question, too)

      @bulldog: If you opponent has less than 15 VPIP i would actually always steal against him, as he would have to defend more than 20% to make you steal unprofiable. If he just plays 15% overall, he will not play more than 20% after a raise!


      Yeah, the guy with the sngs....to my defense i have to add that i had a ROI of 10 over 1000 sngs on partypoker :D


      Thanks for the great feedback!