5B fold

    • donut10
      donut10
      Gold
      Joined: 05.01.2011 Posts: 91
      How deep do you have to be to develop a 5bet/fold range? a lot of aggro regs even as low as nl10 zoom (which i play) four bet kinda light, how many bb effective do you need to be able to 5bet/fold?

      cheers in advance
  • 12 replies
    • legand73
      legand73
      Gold
      Joined: 01.06.2010 Posts: 4,136
      Hey donut1

      what makes you think that you need to have a 5bet/fold range?

      There isn't really a short way to answer this question so i'm just going to pose a few necessary considerations. Apologies in advance for the block.

      I peoples 4bets are pretty small just think about whether your 5bet is going to generate the required fold equity to get villain off the hand.

      as a rough example: you 3bet a 2.5bb open from the BU to 8bb, BU 4bets you to 20bb. How big do you need to make your 5bet to get the desired fold equity.

      It depends a lot on the ranges of the guys who are 4betting light and what they do when faced with a 5bet imo. If they are 4bet calling then it makes sense to have a range that consists of premiums and medium strength hands so that when you get called your not completely screwed when you get called and have to play postflop. If they are either 4betting or folding then it makes sense to have more of a polarised range and 5bet bluff say AX or Kx blockers as well as premiums maybe but i'm not an expert on range construction.

      In terms of % I can't really help you with this because I haven't gone into the finer details in these spots sorry.

      Personally i don't 5bet bluff but a few guys around here do. I think pleno advocates small pps in his 5bet bluff range because you don't do too bad equity-wise when you get called. even 22 vs a range of QQ and AK has like 35% equity which isn't too bad when you think about it.

      Hopefully one of the other members can extend my answer.
    • donut10
      donut10
      Gold
      Joined: 05.01.2011 Posts: 91
      Cheers for your reply legand73, i appreciate you took quite a long time with it and i understand what your are saying regarding opponents tendencies and 4betting range etc,

      also I think I get what you mean about pleno advocating having a 5betting bluffing range of 22 and a5s (or whatever) because 22 has 34% equity vs qq+ ak 4bet/call range and can this be +ev with foldEQ vs wide 4bettor. (I'm assuming this is a 5bet allin bluffing range vs aggro 4bettors 100bb eff stacks)

      But maybe I should rephase my question: how deep do you have to be to 5bet fold a hand, for example 150bb effective stacks, co open 3bb, we 3bet sb to 10bb with AJo, he 4bet 23 bb we 5 bet to 45bb (or whatever the standard 5bet sizing is this deep, idk). Pot size = 69bb Villian six bets all in the remainder of his stack 127bb. Total pot = 196bb. We have to call 105bb

      105/(196+105) = 0.35 = so we need 35% equity to call

      vs 6bet range of qq+ ak, ajo has equity of 25% vs this range so its a clear fold.

      I have kind of answered by own question in part because 150bb deep we can have a 5bet(non allin) folding range, what i want to know is the exact stack size is that we can have a 5bet/fold range

      (pretty sure i watched one of Internet's ipokervip vids and he said we are xBB deep: we can have a 5bet/folding range)
    • legand73
      legand73
      Gold
      Joined: 01.06.2010 Posts: 4,136
      I understood your question donut I was just trying to get you to think about certain considerations in the because I couldn't answer your question directly.

      (pretty sure i watched one of Internet's ipokervip vids and he said we are xBB deep: we can have a 5bet/folding range)


      Yeah I couldn't tell you sorry. Haha sorry if my above post was unnecessarily long-winded. I still think it depends heavily on standard 3bet and 4bet sizings of the limit that you play.

      I'd struggle to accept there being a standard stack size for having a 5bet/fold range because there are just too many varialbes. If you use a ball park figure of around 135bb plus or minus 10bb you wouldn't be too far off
    • TJtheTJ
      TJtheTJ
      Silver
      Joined: 12.10.2011 Posts: 6,575
      You can have a 5bet/folding range 100bb deep if the 4bet is small enough and you expect him to have a 4bet/folding range. Say CO opens 2.5bb, you 3bet to 7bb on the BU, and he 4bets to 15bb. You can easily have a 5bet/folding range here by 5betting to 27bb or so (maybe less?) if you expect your opponent to have a "wide" 4betting range.

      Of course if you 3bet much larger and he 4bets much larger, it's probably better to juts shove or fold 100bb deep. Say you 3bet to 9bb and he 4bets to 23bb or so like you said. In that case I'd say just shoving would be better.
    • booomm
      booomm
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.03.2011 Posts: 677
      Originally posted by legand73

      Personally i don't 5bet bluff but a few guys around here do. I think pleno advocates small pps in his 5bet bluff range because you don't do too bad equity-wise when you get called. even 22 vs a range of QQ and AK has like 35% equity which isn't too bad when you think about it.
      you need to have a 5bet bluffing range, it would be very bad to not have one for obv reasons.
    • donut10
      donut10
      Gold
      Joined: 05.01.2011 Posts: 91
      Ty for youre replies guys, i appreciate it, Im thinking of making a spreadsheet in excel for different stack sizes and 2/3/4/5bet sizings and going from there :)
    • legand73
      legand73
      Gold
      Joined: 01.06.2010 Posts: 4,136
      nice donut that sounds like great idea.

      You should post the spreadsheet on here afterwards if you can be bothered :)
    • Phgrinder
      Phgrinder
      Silver
      Joined: 16.02.2009 Posts: 1,003
      Originally posted by donut10
      Ty for youre replies guys, i appreciate it, Im thinking of making a spreadsheet in excel for different stack sizes and 2/3/4/5bet sizings and going from there :)
      pls share it with us after
    • donut10
      donut10
      Gold
      Joined: 05.01.2011 Posts: 91
      Will do guys! should have it done by early next week :)
    • Evante
      Evante
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.12.2009 Posts: 833
      it is true to have a 5bet bluff range BUT if your opponent 4bets with a 4% range which means he will definitely call more than half of the time wont it be bad?

      ok my actual question is how big the 4bet range must be before we start to incorporate some 5bet bluffs?
    • ains21
      ains21
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.06.2011 Posts: 303
      Originally posted by Evante
      it is true to have a 5bet bluff range BUT if your opponent 4bets with a 4% range which means he will definitely call more than half of the time wont it be bad?

      ok my actual question is how big the 4bet range must be before we start to incorporate some 5bet bluffs?
      Well, it depends on his opening range as well (if he opens 5%, and 4-bets 80%, this doesn't meant that you can incorporate more bluffs since he has such a high 4b%).

      I did some calculations once assuming 55% steal @BU and 18% 4-bet vs. 3-bet (typical-ish reg BU).
      It was a while ago and may be incorrect, and it only concerns 5b jam, but:


      Villain has 55 steal @BU and folds to 3-bets 68%, 4-bets 18%. 55% steal is 643 combos, therefore 18% 4-bet is 115 combos.

      4-bet range: AA-TT,AKo-AQo,ATo,KTo,K8o,QTo,AKs-AQs,A5s-A4s (118).
      4-bet/call range: AA-TT,AKo-AQo,AKs-AQs (62).
      Therefore fold to jam 52%.

      Hero 3-betting range: 66+,AQs+,A5s-A3s,AQo+,ATo,A5o,KJo-KTo,QTo (158).

      Hero 3-betting/jam value range: 99+,AQs+,AQo+ (68).
      Hero 3-bet/folds (zero 5b bluffs): 57%
      Equity vs. villains 4b/call range: 48%
      So EV of this 5b range: ((.48*(.48*100))+(.52*20)) - (.57*10) = 27.74bb

      But what about bluffing here? How many combos of bluffs to get most +EV vs. this range?

      Hero 3-betting/jam value + bluff range #1: 66+,AQs+,A5s-A3s,AQo+,ATo (110).
      Hero 3-bet/folds: 31%.
      Equity vs. villains 4b/call range: 42%
      So EV of this 5b range: ((.48*(.42*100))+(.52*20)) - (.31*10) = 27.46bb.

      OK, so let's have slightly less bluffs:

      Hero 3-betting/jam value + bluff range #2: 88+,AQs+,A5s,AQo+,ATo (90).
      Hero 3-bet/folds: 44%.
      Equity vs. villains 4b/call range: 44%
      So EV of this 5b range: ((.48*(.44*100))+(.52*20)) - (.44*10) = 27.12bb.

      Interesting! Very marginal difference, really. Let's try one more time with less bluffs still:

      Hero 3-betting/jam value + bluff range #3: 88+,AQs+,A5s,AQo+ (78).
      Hero 3-bet/folds: 51%.
      Equity vs. villains 4b/call range: 47%
      So EV of this 5b range: ((.48*(.47*100))+(.52*20)) - (.51*10) = 27.86bb.

      So what can we conclude?

      Well, vs. an opponent who opens >50% and 4-bets 18% vs SB/BB, we should be 3b/jamming something like: 88+,AQs+,A5s,AQo+. Adding more bluffs doesn't increase profitability, since the losses of [lowering equity in AI pot] > [folding 10bb more often]. Important: we don't need a ton of 5b bluffs vs. this kind of villain. When would we have more bluffs? If our opponent 4b/folded more, of course.
      So it seems to me it's not a huge game changer working out the number of bluffs you need in your 5-bet jamming range. Having a couple (A5s or w/e) for reg-ish opponents who 4b more often and then increasing/decreasing it accordingly.

      Don't know if this was any help.
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,698
      it's not so much about stack depth, but more about stack to pot ratio.

      i do have 5bet folding ranges even at 100bb. this mostly occurs when bu minraises, and i 3bet to 7bb, and he 4bets small to 15bb.