*Originally posted by Evante*

it is true to have a 5bet bluff range BUT if your opponent 4bets with a 4% range which means he will definitely call more than half of the time wont it be bad?

ok my actual question is how big the 4bet range must be before we start to incorporate some 5bet bluffs?

Well, it depends on his opening range as well (if he opens 5%, and 4-bets 80%, this doesn't meant that you can incorporate more bluffs since he has such a high 4b%).

I did some calculations once assuming 55% steal @BU and 18% 4-bet vs. 3-bet (typical-ish reg BU).

It was a while ago and may be incorrect, and it only concerns 5b jam, but:

Villain has 55 steal @BU and folds to 3-bets 68%, 4-bets 18%. 55% steal is 643 combos, therefore 18% 4-bet is 115 combos.

4-bet range: AA-TT,AKo-AQo,ATo,KTo,K8o,QTo,AKs-AQs,A5s-A4s (118).

4-bet/call range: AA-TT,AKo-AQo,AKs-AQs (62).

Therefore fold to jam 52%.

Hero 3-betting range: 66+,AQs+,A5s-A3s,AQo+,ATo,A5o,KJo-KTo,QTo (158).

Hero 3-betting/jam value range: 99+,AQs+,AQo+ (68).

Hero 3-bet/folds (zero 5b bluffs): 57%

Equity vs. villains 4b/call range: 48%

So EV of this 5b range: ((.48*(.48*100))+(.52*20)) - (.57*10) = 27.74bb

But what about bluffing here? How many combos of bluffs to get most +EV vs. this range?

Hero 3-betting/jam value + bluff range #1: 66+,AQs+,A5s-A3s,AQo+,ATo (110).

Hero 3-bet/folds: 31%.

Equity vs. villains 4b/call range: 42%

So EV of this 5b range: ((.48*(.42*100))+(.52*20)) - (.31*10) = 27.46bb.

OK, so let's have slightly less bluffs:

Hero 3-betting/jam value + bluff range #2: 88+,AQs+,A5s,AQo+,ATo (90).

Hero 3-bet/folds: 44%.

Equity vs. villains 4b/call range: 44%

So EV of this 5b range: ((.48*(.44*100))+(.52*20)) - (.44*10) = 27.12bb.

Interesting! Very marginal difference, really. Let's try one more time with less bluffs still:

Hero 3-betting/jam value + bluff range #3: 88+,AQs+,A5s,AQo+ (78).

Hero 3-bet/folds: 51%.

Equity vs. villains 4b/call range: 47%

So EV of this 5b range: ((.48*(.47*100))+(.52*20)) - (.51*10) = 27.86bb.

So what can we conclude?

Well, vs. an opponent who opens >50% and 4-bets 18% vs SB/BB, we should be 3b/jamming something like: 88+,AQs+,A5s,AQo+. Adding more bluffs doesn't increase profitability, since the losses of [lowering equity in AI pot] > [folding 10bb more often]. Important: we don't need a ton of 5b bluffs vs. this kind of villain. When would we have more bluffs? If our opponent 4b/folded more, of course.

So it seems to me it's not a huge game changer working out the number of bluffs you need in your 5-bet jamming range. Having a couple (A5s or w/e) for reg-ish opponents who 4b more often and then increasing/decreasing it accordingly.

Don't know if this was any help.