Question about balancing

    • Siliciom
      Siliciom
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.02.2007 Posts: 5,255
      Hi everyone,

      I come here, because I need some explanations on combonator/balancing analysis.

      I played a SnG FL HU during my last coaching, and I decided to review some basic peel/folds on the flop with combonator (I don't go much further, because I suck at using it :f_biggrin: ).

      Here is the hand:

      Pre Flop: (1.5 SB) Hero is BTN/SB with 6 :diamond: Q :heart:
      Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero calls

      Flop: (6 SB) 3 :heart: A :diamond: J :diamond: (2 players)
      BB bets, Hero ?

      So, if I want to remain balance on that spot, I should fold: 1/(6+1) = 14.3% of the time, right?

      The problem is that I don't know what should I peel here, and after taking the most "obvious" peels, I still a folding range > 30%.

      Did I miss something or do I fold way more often than I should?

      Thanks for your help! :)
  • 11 replies
    • Boomer2k10
      Boomer2k10
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.09.2010 Posts: 2,551
      YAY!! A Convert!!

      *ahem*

      This is a pretty interesting spot overall so I'm going to make a few assumptions which apply to my game but no necessarily yours

      1) I don't have a raising range in position at this point
      2) I am assuming our opponent is 3-betting a somewhat balanced range (which includes 3-bet *bluffs* as it were)

      If 2) isn't true then overfolding is probably not a big deal as his 3-betting range will be too tight/value orientated allowing us to take a more optimal exploitative line of over-folding on the flop (especially a flop like this) rather than paying off his stronger range (i.e. he's put us in a position where the most EV we can have is 0 with the bottom part of our range)

      To be honest most of the time we are going to overfold here, unless we peel with all Q-High and K-high hands and even then we're struggling

      Given the average 3-betting texture (so I'm going a little PEE on this) I wouldn't be too upset folding around 25% here because this board simply hits a 3-bettor's range too hard.

      So really our folding hands are T-high or worse with no BDFD, BDSD or ability to pick up something we can bluff on the turn.

      Q-high and maybe some K-High will give us a pair/bluff on a broadway card and on a non-broadway we have a folding range from our Q-Highs and K-Highs which don't pick up anything. In reality there does come a point where it's not worth peeling lower in your range vs a represented range

      But in your case I would peel with Q-High and a BDFD and probably fold the turn unless a broadway came (bluff) or I turned a pair or FD (that's a lot of the deck we can continue on)
    • Siliciom
      Siliciom
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.02.2007 Posts: 5,255
      Well, thanks a lot for the quick answer :)

      Originally posted by Boomer2k10
      1) I don't have a raising range in position at this point
      And I don't cap preflop in position neither, forgot to precise that too ;) .

      Originally posted by Boomer2k10
      2) I am assuming our opponent is 3-betting a somewhat balanced range (which includes 3-bet *bluffs* as it were)
      It's the 8th hands in the match, he 3betted me twice (I saw QJs once at SD) pre so far. Other hands were pretty easy fold on flop for me, or he folds to my cbets. So I d'ont have any good reads, except he seems to be agressive.

      But in your case I would peel with Q-High and a BDFD and probably fold the turn unless a broadway came (bluff) or I turned a pair or FD (that's a lot of the deck we can continue on)
      I did fold, I would have peel the Q of :diamond: . I didn't realise that I'm fold over 50% by doing so and the fact that in a HU match, the strength of the backdoor draw is less important.

      I see cleary that folding Q6 w/BDFD was a mistake. What I'm not really sure is the type off weak draw should I call.

      If I call all K high, any Q9+, all the flushes, backdoor Q high flush and T9, 54, T2 ( ?( ). I still fold ~35% and I already get pretty uncomfortable about my call... But as you said, vs a value heavy range, it's probably fine and it's probably the case of most players non-"I_3BET_YOU_ANY2_IN_BB" at 1.5$ SnG HU :D

      Now I have to check my turn raising range, I already feel like I'm underbluffing way to much even if my raising range is tight.
    • Boomer2k10
      Boomer2k10
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.09.2010 Posts: 2,551
      Now you're making me wanna play some HUHU SNGs for a coaching

      hmmm maybe in a week or so
    • madorjan
      madorjan
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.11.2009 Posts: 5,561
      Welcome to our Cul... ummm... Belief-System, Siliciom!

      Here's my crude assesment of the situation:



      The dark red cards are mainly just combos, some and Q:dx (no Qx tho, so for me it's a fold), but you can even go tighter and fold some lower BDSD-noBDFD combos, since the range asymmetry is pretty heavy on us.
    • Avataren
      Avataren
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.04.2010 Posts: 1,621
      Originally posted by Boomer2k10
      Now you're making me wanna play some HUHU SNGs for a coaching

      hmmm maybe in a week or so
      flhu sng's too easy
    • Siliciom
      Siliciom
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.02.2007 Posts: 5,255
      Originally posted by madorjan
      ... Belief-System
      There is another one ? :f_eek:
    • Boomer2k10
      Boomer2k10
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.09.2010 Posts: 2,551
      Originally posted by Siliciom
      Originally posted by madorjan
      ... Belief-System
      There is another one ? :f_eek:
      Remember

      Playing LHE you're fighting for truth, justice and the right to call down K-High in public places!
    • Siliciom
      Siliciom
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.02.2007 Posts: 5,255
      Originally posted by madorjan
      Thanks for the cheatsheet! ;)

      That helped me a lot, to restart from the flop and see what can I do on various turn... I've only made raising range (one thing at time, and I've just two colors on my free liscence :P ).

      [/URL]
      So I started with TP+ as value, and all GS+ (except 54o, 52s /42s of :heart: ) and Q high FD.

      I put 4 SB for my raise into a 10 SB pot : 4/14 = 28.57% of bluffs

      Seems right.

      Now I've come up with ~31% of turn raise in that situation. I've some hands left to play with like KJ/QQ/KK for value and lower gutshot as bluffs, but I don't know how far I should go as default on turn raise?
    • Boomer2k10
      Boomer2k10
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.09.2010 Posts: 2,551
      Look at the odds your opponent is getting to call down, they're the odds you're interested in when it comes to bluffing

      In this case your opponent has to put in 2 bets (assuming you barrell river) into what will be a total pot of 10BB so you should bluff around about 20% of the time (maybe a little less but leverage principles & equity point towards bluffing more towards 20% than the 12.5% an immediate 1-in-8 calc would give)

      So you're overbluffing in this case which is imple to remedy, just remove some Qx bluffs and you'll probably be ok to go. Additionally in a 3-bet pot I'd be a little hesitant to raise all Ax on the turn (certainly not A2) so you may want to back off even more there.
    • madorjan
      madorjan
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.11.2009 Posts: 5,561
      Agreed, Q hi in HUHU generally is a peel/fold hand on the turn unless the board is weirdly midling (like T62 or stg), and especially with the A on board, that is a total blank regarding our Q his in our range (meaning that Q hi is at exactly the same place in our range as it would be on a napkin).
    • Siliciom
      Siliciom
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.02.2007 Posts: 5,255
      Thanks for explanations :)

      So if I remove all Qx of my bluffing range and all A2 combos, I'll get a bluffing range of 19.7%.

      I am still raise alomst all Ax and if I want to go tight on value, I've to remove T9 off my bluffing range.

      We will hit very strong value on the river (something like 20% of the time?), so should'nt we bluffs a little more than 20% of the time to still have something close to 20%? Or it will be simply impossible to keep the good ratio on certains river like :diamond: where most of our bluffs hits...

      ... Then I have a bad raising range ...

      I will be back!