KK all in only with read

    • Sasa1234
      Sasa1234
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.05.2008 Posts: 298
      I'm not gonna go all in with KK preflop because that is just not profitable with opponents that aren't going all in with weaker hands(even slowplaying aces preflop on a raise). What do you think?
  • 27 replies
    • Dragar
      Dragar
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      Joined: 09.09.2008 Posts: 2,214
      Yes good choice. Stick to regular raising strategy
    • Sasa1234
      Sasa1234
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      Joined: 22.05.2008 Posts: 298
      Strategy tells push all in. I'm adjusting to the opponents and go all in only against shortstacks and halfstacks.
    • Puciek
      Puciek
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      Joined: 23.01.2008 Posts: 657
      going just allin, not as result of multiple bets is very ev- move because only hands that will call you will be aces (case you loose) or kings (case you go for split) or eventualy AK (here u will win some).
      So go for normal betting instead.
    • CimkoPro
      CimkoPro
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      Joined: 16.06.2008 Posts: 159
      KK is ez push any time any moment :D
    • davidangel
      davidangel
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      Joined: 03.09.2008 Posts: 456
      As SSSer you want to get your stack in the middle preflop with AA or KK. In un-raised pot you must stick to SSS and make measured bets, or you become readable. In an opened pot the idea is to 3 and 4 bet, that way you collect FE against limpers and limp callers while still claiming your fish in the main pot (the last player to raise before you is your target, if its a 3-bet he has AK, JJ+ and you are huge favorite)
      In a multi-way pot your AA KK is only marginal favorite but still +EV, thus, if you do get in a multi pot you want your money in good, and you dont want anyone escaping on the flop.
      If you are facing a big-stack, you still MUST bet/raise your big hands, there is virtually no trapping in SSS. If the board is weak and "feels right" you can lower your flop bet and fire your big bet on the turn. But still bet.
      In short, get your cash in the middle at the first favorable opportunity with big hands.
    • TheBu11d0g
      TheBu11d0g
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      Joined: 25.07.2008 Posts: 2,019
      Originally posted by davidangel
      As SSSer you want to get your stack in the middle preflop with AA or KK. In un-raised pot you must stick to SSS and make measured bets, or you become readable. In an opened pot the idea is to 3 and 4 bet, that way you collect FE against limpers and limp callers while still claiming your fish in the main pot (the last player to raise before you is your target, if its a 3-bet he has AK, JJ+ and you are huge favorite)
      In a multi-way pot your AA KK is only marginal favorite but still +EV, thus, if you do get in a multi pot you want your money in good, and you dont want anyone escaping on the flop.
      If you are facing a big-stack, you still MUST bet/raise your big hands, there is virtually no trapping in SSS. If the board is weak and "feels right" you can lower your flop bet and fire your big bet on the turn. But still bet.
      In short, get your cash in the middle at the first favorable opportunity with big hands.
      #1

      well explained. All i would add is to definately stick to the SSS and raise either 4BB + 1BB for each limper or if there's a raise in front of you then £ x the initial raise + 1 raise for each caller. If someone re-raises behind you then push pre-flop.
    • Sasa1234
      Sasa1234
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      Joined: 22.05.2008 Posts: 298
      Maybe I didn't express myself right. Strategy says reraise 4 times the initial raise(thats ok) but if the vilain goes all in I'm not calling here unless he's a fish or smaller stack( less than 50 BB)
    • TheBu11d0g
      TheBu11d0g
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.07.2008 Posts: 2,019
      Originally posted by Sasa1234
      Maybe I didn't express myself right. Strategy says reraise 4 times the initial raise(thats ok) but if the vilain goes all in I'm not calling here unless he's a fish or smaller stack( less than 50 BB)
      Its only a 3x the initial raise bet, but even if the villian goes all-in after that raise im pushing every single time with my AA or KK. And looking through my hands played with AA or KK i am considerably, considerably up in terms of money won with against money lost with them.
    • Dragar
      Dragar
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      Joined: 09.09.2008 Posts: 2,214
      Uhm why not?

      He has 3 outs of winning with an A
      2 out of winning with another pocket pair

      and he got you beat with AA

      And he might have flush draws or combined straight/flush draws

      Whatever the case:
      Your favorite unless he has AA

      You should always call.
    • davidangel
      davidangel
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.09.2008 Posts: 456
      And here is why you will come out +EV playing your KKowboys. NEVER EVER NEVER EVER EVER fold your KK preflop. The judges will shoot you.

      Known players:
      Position:
      Stack
      SB:
      $2.00
      BB:
      $2.35
      UTG+2:
      $3.45
      MP1:
      $3.55
      MP2:
      $2.20
      MP3:
      $12.75
      Hero:
      $2.55
      BU:
      $11.65

      0.05/0.1 No-Limit Hold'em (8 handed)
      Hand recorder used for this poker hand: PokerStrategy Elephant 0.60 by www.pokerstrategy.com.

      Preflop: Hero is CO with K:heart: , K:spade:
      2 folds, MP2 calls $0.10, MP3 calls $0.10, Hero raises to $0.60, BU folds, SB raises to $1.95, BB raises to $2.35 (All-In), MP2 folds, MP3 raises to $12.75 (All-In), Hero calls $1.95, SB folds, MP3 gets uncalled bet back..

      Flop: ($9.50) 3:heart: , 2:spade: , T:club:
      Turn: ($9.50) 9:heart:
      River: ($9.50) 9:club:


      Final Pot: $9.50

      Results follow (highlight to see):
      Hero shows two pairs, kings and nines (Kh Ks)
      BB shows a pair of nines (Qh Kc)
      MP3 shows two pairs, nines and sevens (7d 7s)

      Hero wins with two pairs, kings and nines (Kh Ks)

      Here is the hand prior to this one.... alot of chum at this table.
      Would you fold if your holdings were KK instead of A2o? I'm not.

      Known players:
      Position:
      Stack
      SB:
      $11.70
      BB:
      $0.10
      UTG+2:
      $2.45
      MP1:
      $4.00
      MP2:
      $3.55
      MP3:
      $2.20
      CO:
      $12.05
      Hero:
      $2.55

      0.05/0.1 No-Limit Hold'em (8 handed)
      Hand recorder used for this poker hand: PokerStrategy Elephant 0.60 by www.pokerstrategy.com.

      Preflop: Hero is BU with A:club: , 2:heart:
      UTG+2 calls $0.10, MP1 raises to $0.55, 2 folds, CO raises to $12.05 (All-In), 4 folds, CO gets uncalled bet back..

      Flop: ($1.35) 8:club: , 3:spade: , 6:club:
      Turn: ($1.35) K:club:
      River: ($1.35) 9:diamond:


      Final Pot: $1.35

      Results follow (highlight to see):
      BB shows high card ace with king kicker (As 7s)
      CO shows a pair of fives (5d 5c)

      CO wins with a pair of fives (5d 5c)

      And this was the hand I started the play with....

      Known players:
      Position:
      Stack
      Hero:
      $2.00
      MP1:
      $3.05

      0.05/0.1 No-Limit Hold'em (9 handed)
      Hand recorder used for this poker hand: PokerStrategy Elephant 0.60 by www.pokerstrategy.com.

      Preflop: Hero is BB with A:heart: , Q:spade:
      2 folds, MP1 calls $0.10, 4 folds, SB calls $0.05, Hero raises to $0.60, MP1 calls $0.50, SB folds.

      Flop: ($1.30) T:heart: , 5:club: , J:club: (2 players)
      Hero bets $1.40 (All-In), MP1 folds, Hero gets uncalled bet back..

      Final Pot: $1.30

      So you can see, I make the correct measured bets, I am unreadable... I am also not afraid to push as MP1 in this case likely has Ax, small PP or rag. He, on the other hand has no clue what I have. Even if he hits J or T I can still improve and win. OH, and chum dont like big flop bets, they prefer to call small, fold river or push action themselves (LAGs, maniacs)
      My KK holdings are +188 BB on NL10 (+60BB in one hand helps)
      I dont fold them. Period.

      I hope this helps you with your all-in with KKonfusion :D
    • alejandrosh
      alejandrosh
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.07.2008 Posts: 4,346
      i would say always push unless you have a read. and by read i mean ultra tight stats and by ultratight stats i mean vpip < 2 pfr 1 hand +2000
    • Ave27
      Ave27
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.01.2007 Posts: 171
      Originally posted by Sasa1234
      Strategy tells push all in. I'm adjusting to the opponents and go all in only against shortstacks and halfstacks.
      wouldn't u want to go all-in vs Big stacks... u can double up, and they will be the ones playing weaker hands, If people are playing true short stack *even if its not sss from ps.com* they are prob playing tighter and thats where u will run into problems.

      Plus if ur have a chance to get ur money all-in with kk's preflop why not. Its the 2nd best starting hand in the game, what more do u want besides AA... its doesn't get much better. Poker is about getting ur money in when ur odds are good. With KK ur odds are pretty damn good. If u run into AA its just bad luck, and thats why we play the game. If we knew what was going to happen and we knew who'd win 100% of the time all the time, it wouldn't be much of a game.

      on lower limits people will put u all-in with all sorts of stuff... QQ, JJ. I've seen a guy go all-in with pocket 2's and get called by KJo. Donks do stuff like this all the time at lower limits. Its not profitable to fold KK just cuz some raise u all-in and u don't want to. Plus ur ahead of AK, and lots of people marry this hand.

      I say if u get ur money in with KK it will pay off more then suck out.
    • Sasa1234
      Sasa1234
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.05.2008 Posts: 298
      I play BSS not SSS, and all in with KK seems just little better than with QQ...
    • teslasecretweapon
      teslasecretweapon
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.08.2008 Posts: 91
      Imo, you can always call preflop ai from shortstackers, almost all the time against midstackers, but for calling all-in from a full stack player you should always have some reads/stats about him. Also, your decision highly depends on situation, becouse there are a lot of diferent situations where your oponent will reraise you all-in.
      The best way to solve your problem is to post your KK hands in sample hands part of the forum.
    • SunWukung
      SunWukung
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.03.2008 Posts: 28
      you get all-in preflop with KK against AA as many times as the other way around, so in the long run your wins and losses are zero. But you win most of the situations when you have KK against any other hand. So getting all-in with KK is +EV imo

      edit: especially at micro limits where people go allin with way worse hands than kings
    • TribunCaesar
      TribunCaesar
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.04.2007 Posts: 13,264
      KK is an always all-in preflop for 100BB!
    • davidangel
      davidangel
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.09.2008 Posts: 456
      Originally posted by TribunCaesar
      KK is an always all-in preflop for 100BB!
      #2
      Believe it KKowboy
    • Sebra
      Sebra
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.08.2006 Posts: 1,121
      Originally posted by Sasa1234
      I'm not gonna go all in with KK preflop because that is just not profitable with opponents that aren't going all in with weaker hands(even slowplaying aces preflop on a raise). What do you think?
      That's beautiful! I would always put my money in preflop then with KK because they (almost) never have a hand that beats mine if they slowplay aces a lot.
    • JohnJames97
      JohnJames97
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.07.2008 Posts: 173
      WOW !

      Are u waiting for a promise of never ever ever losing a hand ?

      Stick it all in and get on with it and in 6 months post here about how profitable KK is for you.

      Cheers and Wealth
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