Fold KK, QQ, JJ pre flop Zoom

    • blom90
      blom90
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.01.2011 Posts: 147
      Hi,

      I just started to play FR Zoom NL25.

      Got some questions:

      Can I ever fold KK to an all-in pre flop?
      And how is it with QQ and JJ?
      JJ seems like an easy fold to an all-in pre flop in Zoom – or?

      How should I play these types of hands?

      First 3-bet if someone already opened? And what if they 4-bet or goes all-in?
  • 8 replies
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,916
      Hi blom90

      Yes, you can fold anything you want any time you want.

      The question is why would you want to?

      Example, you hold KK on the BTN, and face a UTG open, MP calls, you squeeze, UTG shoves, MP calls.

      Now you have to check pot odds vs equity.

      What ranges would you expect for UTG and MP here? Are they loose spew monkeys, or nits?
      What is KK's equity vs those ranges?

      Do you have Equilab ?
      It is extremely helpful for analysing scenarios like this.

      Example:

             Equity     Win     Tie
      UTG    23.14%  21.41%   1.73% { TT+, AJs+, KQs, AQo+ }
      UTG+1  23.14%  21.41%   1.73% { TT+, AJs+, KQs, AQo+ }
      BU     53.72%  52.40%   1.32% { KK }


      Call or fold is a flip.
      But I used rather wide ranges.
      If you think that they are more like this:


             Equity     Win     Tie
      UTG    29.74%  27.24%   2.50% { QQ+, AQs+, AKo }
      UTG+1  31.55%  28.67%   2.87% { QQ+, AKs, AKo }
      BU     38.72%  36.75%   1.96% { KK }


      QQ and JJ will of course be worse.

      Stack size comes into play too.
      Short and mid-stack strategy players will open shove A-rag and 99+, so I'm never folding JJ+ vs these sorts of players.

      Disclaimer: I am NOT a coach!

      Best of luck,
      --VS
    • RasTweet
      RasTweet
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.12.2009 Posts: 4,553
      Hey Blom!

      I have to say that Vorpal is spot on!

      About QQ I have 1 thing to ask though. Do you stack off with AK pre flop? QQ has slightly better equity then AK. I play SH so I'm usually not folding QQ pre but FR is nitty so that might be a fold I really don't know the correct answer tbh. Can't say anything about JJ since it's FR.

      Best regards

      RasTweet
    • tukioppilas62
      tukioppilas62
      Platinum
      Joined: 01.01.2011 Posts: 2,073
      I've played nl10 zoom on stars and I must say that the preflop broke ranges are very nitty there. Ppl usually are going broke preflop there only KK+, QQ+ on late positions.
    • Rihard4a
      Rihard4a
      Gold
      Joined: 08.09.2010 Posts: 2,038
      Originally posted by tukioppilas62
      I've played nl10 zoom on stars and I must say that the preflop broke ranges are very nitty there. Ppl usually are going broke preflop there only KK+, QQ+ on late positions.
      I play NL10 zoom right now and people happily get it in AK, QQ+ in EP, MP. TT+, AQ+ BU,CO vs Blinds. Your statement is weird, though I play SH. I don't know how relevant this is for FR, as I have very little experience with it, but I would surely say that it will be somewhat the same position wise, the later the position the wider they will commit.
    • tukioppilas62
      tukioppilas62
      Platinum
      Joined: 01.01.2011 Posts: 2,073
      Okay I beleave you, I'm playing on stars.eu too. Maybe I've been just running very bad on my 50k hands.
    • Rihard4a
      Rihard4a
      Gold
      Joined: 08.09.2010 Posts: 2,038
      Originally posted by tukioppilas62
      Okay I beleave you, I'm playing on stars.eu too. Maybe I've been just running very bad on my 50k hands.
      Or you are playing too tight. If you play too tight, then guess what people will stack off you with? :)
    • triple2
      triple2
      Basic
      Joined: 15.12.2011 Posts: 4
      Originally posted by blom90
      Hi,

      I just started to play FR Zoom NL25.

      Got some questions:

      Can I ever fold KK to an all-in pre flop?
      And how is it with QQ and JJ?
      JJ seems like an easy fold to an all-in pre flop in Zoom – or?

      How should I play these types of hands?

      First 3-bet if someone already opened? And what if they 4-bet or goes all-in?
      I think you can if you have some decent stats on your opponents. For instance if an opponent raises UTG(and it's his 1st time in 200 hands) and you 3 bet on the button(which might be a bad idea in the first place), then a super-nitty opponent shoves all in for 100bb out of the blinds and the initial raiser calls the shove. Can you call? One of these opponents has to have AA one would think. Extreme example but worth thinking about.
    • pleno1
      pleno1
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 19.11.2010 Posts: 5,596
      Also a reason why going with ak vs a range of jj+ as well as qq is because if we have ak even though it has less equity against the range that qq does because we have a A and a K in our hand its less likely that our opponent has a hand that crushes us.