badugi issues

    • tommygecko
      tommygecko
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.08.2012 Posts: 1,229
      I don't understand. 48% of hitting a badugi and I miss so many in a row with strong tris?
      And when I have weak pat badugi I get raised after the 2nd draw 80% of the time?

      I'm wondering, am I getting bluffed all the time. But seems like when I try to bluff catch they always have it, especially since it's super micro stakes I'm playing.

      Or just run bad? I'm running pretty bad if that's the case and its unbelievable
  • 30 replies
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,910
      Hi, tommygecko

      It might be run bad, since badugi has huge variance.

      You might be getting bluffed if:
        You limp and draw 2 from EP or MP
        You pat early and show a weak hand 9-low or worse
        You call a raise and pat


      On the other hand, I see v little microstakes players bluffing.
      Like NLHE, you can't bluff if they won't fold.

      Have you read http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/7-card-stud/1941/1/?

      Somewhere I read an article that explained what hands you should break, and when to snow, and what to play vs various draws.

      Where do you play badugi?

      If it is on PokerStars, there are badugi freerolls (one starting in about 15 minutes from now) that are good to practice on.
      You win a ticket to a weekly final.

      I know what you mean about getting outdrawn.
      I've seen guys draw 3 to an A and beat a pat 7-low

      Hang in there.
      --VS
    • tommygecko
      tommygecko
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.08.2012 Posts: 1,229
      There are so many good spots to bluff (especially IP) and I think some of the other guys know that (Some are regs who play long enough to know where are good spots to bluff)

      Today I had A35tri after 3rd draw and I caught someone bluffing 3 way and he was IP. I'm sure there have been several other times where I had decent tris and missed but had to fold because they *probably* have a badugi (regardless whether it's HU or 3 way) but I was bluffed out.
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,910
      I guess it's time to take notes.

      From time to time I will "overbluff" if I'm IP, just drew one vs a pat on the prev street. It needs to be vs the right player though.

      Did you play the freeroll?

      --VS
    • badgerer
      badgerer
      Silver
      Joined: 29.03.2010 Posts: 555
      tommygecko,

      2 questions.

      how often are you bluff catching against pat hands?
      how often/under which circumstances are you taking the 3rd draw against pat villains?
    • tommygecko
      tommygecko
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.08.2012 Posts: 1,229
      Originally posted by badgerer
      tommygecko,

      2 questions.

      how often are you bluff catching against pat hands?
      how often/under which circumstances are you taking the 3rd draw against pat villains?
      1. Almost never, unless I have reads. If I bluff catch once in a while it's more like a tilt call more than anything else. I can't think of a proper reason to bluff catch at these stakes vs unknowns (maybe only if he draws 4 and pats). I'm also more likely bluff catching vs someone who is IP rather than OOP because it's much better to bluff IP.

      2. Depends on pot size, not sure exactly the pot odds I need but usually with a decent tri it's normal to call all his bets assuming pot is raised pre.
    • badgerer
      badgerer
      Silver
      Joined: 29.03.2010 Posts: 555
      i agree with you on point 1.

      on point 2 i think your probably burning money by calling big bets too often when you're drawing. you're almost never getting the right odds. i would usually fold after 2nd when im behind unless im getting at least 10 to 1.

      a23 vs jack badugi you have only 8 outs assuming they are all still live, and that is one of the best case scenarios you can hope for.

      im a bit rusty on my badugi related maths so i wont embarrass myself by going into detail. :f_cool:
    • tommygecko
      tommygecko
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.08.2012 Posts: 1,229
      Originally posted by badgerer
      i agree with you on point 1.

      on point 2 i think your probably burning money by calling big bets too often when you're drawing. you're almost never getting the right odds. i would usually fold after 2nd when im behind unless im getting at least 10 to 1.

      a23 vs jack badugi you have only 8 outs assuming they are all still live, and that is one of the best case scenarios you can hope for.

      im a bit rusty on my badugi related maths so i wont embarrass myself by going into detail. :f_cool:
      Whether its A23 or A29 you still have 7/8 outs vs a J badugi :D

      in most cases, if pot is raised pre and u call a bet after 1st and 2nd draw post you are getting about 6.75:1. Definitely enough to call if you have 7 outs. assuming u drew 1 first 2 draws, you need 45:7 which is 6.5:1. But don't forget if u hit you will definitely get another big bet on the river if you are IP (calling his bet or value betting after he checks, he will never fold) and sometimes when u hit a monster and you can easily raise for value too, which means 2 big bets sometimes.

      Probably with decent tri 6 or better it might be a call but 7 or worse a fold then? I'm not so sure about the exact math
    • badgerer
      badgerer
      Silver
      Joined: 29.03.2010 Posts: 555
      im not certain but i think your evaluation of your equity for the last draw is wrong. you have got me to question my own assessment which can only be good thing.

      im busy today but im gonna look over some stuff and get back at you soon.
    • badgerer
      badgerer
      Silver
      Joined: 29.03.2010 Posts: 555
      on the 3rd draw there are 46 unknown cards so (100/46)*8 = 17.39% equity. so you're right.

      100/17.39 is roughly 5.75, does that mean 17.39% is 5.75 to 1 or 6.75 to 1? i can never rmb.

      the problem with calling is that if the villain doesn't pat junk badugi's then this is probably the absolute best case scenario for us. if they have an 8 our equity drops to 10.87%.

      you're right about implied odds but i would be inclined to play them down because a lot of villains will play the river cautiously in this spot unless they are very strong.

      its well worth bearing in mind you should be estimating how many of your outs are dead based on the action. hu its likely 1 is dead. if 4 players limp/call then... well, you get the idea.
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,910
      Originally posted by badgerer
      100/17.39 is roughly 5.75, does that mean 17.39% is 5.75 to 1 or 6.75 to 1? i can never rmb.
      .
      100 - 17.39 = 82.61
      82.61 / 17.39 = 4.75:1

      In general, if p is the winning percentage, then the odds are:
      ((100 - p) / p):1

      Badugi is SO much a bluffing game.
      Know the odds, and know your players.

      Cheers,
      --VS
    • badgerer
      badgerer
      Silver
      Joined: 29.03.2010 Posts: 555
      thanks vorpal.

      i should have known that :f_mad:
    • RedSpade
      RedSpade
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.10.2008 Posts: 5
      Thanx for the strategy link!
    • SonOfSonOfSpock
      SonOfSonOfSpock
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.10.2011 Posts: 78
      Badugi is one of the only poker games that you can't find advanced strategy online. That means this game is totally exploitable.

      The most important factors in Badugi:

      • Good hand selection. Play IP all the time, and wait for your best hands.
      • Fold at the right time. One of the major mistakes in this game is that player often draw until the river.
      • Note taking. Takes notes on ranges, bluff spots, everything you find important.


      Why you should not play weak pat Badugi OOP:

      • They lose pretty often, as you already realize
      • OPP will put notes on you, and that means they will play a wider range and re-raise you turn with any 9 pat badugi. You might think that this is a good thing, but you are wrong. You want a cheap showdown sometimes.
      • They will also start betting you on the river with 8-9 pat badugis, because they think if you draw a weak badugi is enough for you to call


      Material:

      • Przytula - Video Challenge (Badugi) on Cardrunners
      • TwoPlusTwo - Teach Me How To Dugi
    • adasko99
      adasko99
      Silver
      Joined: 13.02.2011 Posts: 1,899
      anybody here? :D
    • SonOfSonOfSpock
      SonOfSonOfSpock
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.10.2011 Posts: 78
      No. Why?
    • adasko99
      adasko99
      Silver
      Joined: 13.02.2011 Posts: 1,899
      hi guys ^_^

      I was just gonna ask if anyone knows what's the optimal minimum bluff-catching requirements vs total unknowns, in certain post-draw spots like:

      i drew 1, villan drew1, i check, villain bets
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,910
      Hi, adasko99,
      Disclaimer: I am NOT a coach!;
      (or even a Badugi expert :( )

      Badugi is more magic than science. Against unknowns, you need to know standard ranges, and apart from opening hands, there really aren't any.

      In the situation I'll check call with smooth 3-card 7s and 8s -- maybe even 9s.
      I definitely fold rough 3-card 9s and possible rough 3-card 8s

      Smooth 5s and 6s are worth a shot at a check/raise.

      Made badugis are for check/raising, but be careful with made 9-badugis or worse.
      They can be costly.

      I have no idea what is optimal, especially if you mean GTO.

      Best of luck,
      VS
    • adasko99
      adasko99
      Silver
      Joined: 13.02.2011 Posts: 1,899
      Hi VorpalF2F, thanks a lot for your advice :)
      you need to know standard ranges, and apart from opening hands
      where i can find those opening ranges? :)

      Smooth 5s and 6s are worth a shot at a check/raise.
      do you mean smooth TRIS 5s and 6s on the River bluffcatch? if yes, would that be a value or a bluff check/raise?

      if for value then that seems too thin to me to be honest :D
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,910
      Originally posted by adasko99
      where i can find those opening ranges? :)
      Hi, adasko99,
      I think that this article is available to bronze. If not, then please let me know...
      http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/7-card-stud/1941/1/

      Originally posted by adasko99
      Smooth 5s and 6s are worth a shot at a check/raise.
      do you mean smooth TRIS 5s and 6s on the River bluffcatch? if yes, would that be a value or a bluff check/raise?

      if for value then that seems too thin to me to be honest :D
      Agreed. 3-card 5s and 6s are for semi-bluff pre-river.
      Depending on who is doing the betting, I might call a river bet with a 3-card 5 or 6, but not raise it.

      Cheers,
      VS
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