Moaning Again - Sorry

    • slickdigital
      slickdigital
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.09.2008 Posts: 20
      Got $50 on full tilt ( Thank you very much))) however since I started I was on a run which would give anybody frost bite!!!

      I have had more than my fair share of varience, bad beats and sick hits - the majority of the time I have made the right play and put my chips in at the right time - yet my bank roll has been battered.

      As someone who has played for many years, I accept the luck element of the game, however am starting to feel more like low stakes poker is played by others as an advanced bingo.....and that most of the time bad play and players are rewarded by adapting a "snap" mentality or 5 card race.

      I made sure that I played at a level well within my understanding and skill level of poker, and played at a low buy-in to try to manage my bank roll.

      Yet even though I played good solid poker, with only a few errors I am down and nearly out....

      From what I have witnessed, the only way to make money on the low stake events is to play snap and lots of it - have a big bank roll and play a reckless game throughout the torney.

      Accept that ace rag is king, call all in reraises with 33, go all in 3rd with A10, push against BB every time in blinds heads up regardless of hand.. Call any short stack even if you have 5 9 and its 45% of your stack the list goes on...

      You cant play proper poker and support your income on low stakes poker - you just have to play 10 tables at once and play any rubbish...

      Its easy for people to say in the long term good players profit - but just how long is "long term"

      I have been playing for 7 years online - and over that time I have lost tens of thousandsof pounds, maybe hundereds of thousands of pounds - getting sucked out in or around the money.. Thats a dam site more than I earned in most of my jobs during that time...

      My username on full tilt is sub71

      FOr those of you who only generate an income from poker, what stakes do you play at when it comes to STT's and MTT's?

      cheers
  • 10 replies
    • Chiller3k
      Chiller3k
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.06.2007 Posts: 4,326
      Hi slickdigital,

      From what I have witnessed, the only way to make money on the low stake events is to play snap and lots of it - have a big bank roll and play a reckless game throughout the torney.


      sorry... but that's just not right. Playing rubbish is never a good idea. And you won't make any profit with it.
      You will only loose even more. Indeed, poker has a luck factor but in the long run solid and good poker will persist.

      Yet even though I played good solid poker, with only a few errors I am down and nearly out....


      If you really played for 7 years and only lost. Even on the low limits. You are definitely doing something wrong!
      So if you want to continue playing poker you should analyze your game and use our hand evaluation boards (Fixed-Limit / No-Limit / SNG)!
      Everybody who puts some effort in his play should be able to beat the micros.

      But if you really lost that much money with poker you should just stop! Playing for so long and loosing that much is an indicator for addiction!

      Best regards,
      Chiller3k
    • slickdigital
      slickdigital
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.09.2008 Posts: 20
      Thanks for your reply - and I agree with all you say..

      However I didnt say I am a losing player over the 7 years.. simply that playing as a hobby - i.e not constant I have not built up a bank roll and when I have won have drawn the money out..

      My comment was that while I accept over the long run solid play can reward you, building you bank roll while overcoming varience and bad/sick beats is very difficult and soul destroying when you are playing well )))

      My success has come from playing higher buy in events/tourneys - still low in reletive terms but ultimatly the rub of the green is fairer because often you are against hands/players that should be in the play rather than hands/players who shouldnt...

      down and out was a reffence to my full tilt bonus...
    • RockEye
      RockEye
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.08.2008 Posts: 416
      Hey slickdigital, i need to agree with you about micro limits game. Playing good poker in micro limits is hard. Ppl call with every hand, push all in with garbage and poker fairy grants them a cool flop. I believe in higher limits, there are more serious players (well i know there are maniacs and fishes too at higher limits).
      Thus your good poker play and your expirience pays off.
      I wish i had 7 years of poker expirience like you do. But i think this is your problem. You are probbably used to more serious players than these donks that play micro limits with free starting capital.
      Try to adjust your play. I am having a problem too playing micro limits. I am sure i'll find a way how to survive and soon jump to higher limits.
      Just my 2c.
    • slikec
      slikec
      Global
      Joined: 04.02.2008 Posts: 1,155
      I like low limits for me is easy to adopt ;) Problem is making 2$ per hour is just not enought and you learn only how to adopt different types of players which is not bad at all ;) But well we all try to achieve sth. right ;) ANd on low limits you can not achieve much ;(
    • cannell555
      cannell555
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.03.2008 Posts: 2,410
      Originally posted by slickdigital
      Thanks for your reply - and I agree with all you say..

      However I didnt say I am a losing player over the 7 years.. simply that playing as a hobby - i.e not constant I have not built up a bank roll and when I have won have drawn the money out..
      Hi slickdigital,

      If you have lost thousands, or hundreds of thousands then it seems you are a losing player. The low limits are easier to play, than the high limits. You just need a different strategy. You need to play simple ABC poker. You could train a monkey in 30 minutes to play winning SSS poker. You just need patience. If your playing on the high limits, then you have no patience, therefore i'd suggest that you quit tbh.

      Even playing nl50 SSS you can make a great amount of $/hour. You are focused on money though, which is the easiest way to go broke. You also state that its hard to beat variance, to build a roll. I strongly disagree. Hand any good player $50 and they would never go broke. $50 is a descent amount of money for a starting roll, if you use it wisely.

      Also you say playing well and loosing is soul destroying, I disagree. If you make the right plays and lose, you should be happy that you played well. Not unhappy that you lost "money". I suggest if that if you carry on playing, you should post sample hands, watch video's, read articles and visit coachings. What might seem like good play to you, might in fact be awful play.

      Only people who evaluate their game will learn, and therefore earn money.

      Best regards,
      Stiev
    • slickdigital
      slickdigital
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.09.2008 Posts: 20
      Again I agree with your comments, but maybe my post was misleading so to clarify;

      I said that I have lost thousands, hundreds of thousands while in the money or just outside, i.e prize winnings not my money.

      Second point I only play STT's and MTT's I do not play cash games.

      third point: I evalute my play all the time and would like to think i have studied the game since i began.

      While i accept that I may have rose tinted glasses on about my play, I am confident enough in my understanding of the game to know the difference between good play and bad...

      I agree with posting hands, studing videos etc, and have also done this since i began. (excluding posting hands)

      My point was that it is soul destroying when time after time you got out through no fault of your own...I looked at my finishing positions via offical poker rankings - and can guarantee you that over 80% of my finishes ended while on the end of a bad beat or at least while having the dominant hand..( please note I understand the difference between race and bad beat) and from my stats the majority of the time it was at the business end of the event!!

      Finally studying how to play the game right, i.e push ranges, value betting, position, slow play, steals, starting hands, stack position blah blah blah is all well and good but builing a bankroll means starting on low stakes and alot of techinques are lost at this level ( dont get me wrong it gives you a massive advantage) but at the end of the day if people dont understand the moves you make and call with nothing and hit ( which in my experience they do more often than not) it is difficult to build your stack.

      You say any good player will never lose a $50 stack, I am sorry but disagree, an excellent player can have a bank roll of $500, $5000, $50000 and lose it, doesnt mean they are not a great player.

      As I said I dont play cash games, because I love the game as a sport, Tourny play is much more different than cash games and my studing and evalution of my game is focused on this element.

      The fact is beleive me or not, my bank roll has gone, not through bad play but simply my hands and plays didnt hold up, yes I went out running into monster hands ( but more often than not I had a monster hand too), yes i went out to bad play or bad timing, but that makes up a small % of the outs.

      You mentioned lack of patience, which could not be further from the truth, if anything I am over passive/tight, my starting hand selection during events is bordering "rock" - i also mix up my play and when needed revert to ABC poker.

      While I accept I have much to learn about the game, I also know where I am now, the fact is my hands/play will hold up in the end and I will recoup some of the prize money stolen from me)) The only moan is, if my hands stood up the % of times they should ( according to any poker book!!!) then I would do it alot quicker))))))))))))))))
    • cannell555
      cannell555
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.03.2008 Posts: 2,410
      If you play 10 SnG's and in that time, you get the chips in 10 times, with 70/30 equity. The odds say we will win 7, lets for example say that we do win 7. You think at the time of winning the hand, well I had the better hand so thats fair.

      But...

      You also loose 3 of them. You then think this is a joke, I was way ahead, and he sucked out. Now i've lost because of a bad beat.

      This type of thinking can be applied to different situations. You only notice such hands when you loose. The odds never lie, and you need to train your brain against remembering bad plays.

      I can almost guarantee over 7 years the odds of your hands will be almost exact, to how they should look.

      Again, no good player will ever go broke, if they apply proper BRM. There is so many micro-micro stakes games now.

      Best regards,
      Stiev
    • slickdigital
      slickdigital
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.09.2008 Posts: 20
      Very good points cannell I agree with them all, I also understand that having the best hand only increases your equity and that you still lose a proportion of them...all that said i started counting just one hand AA - and currently I am at 17 from 39 thats around 42% ( thats since i counted due to being amazed at how many times i lost with them!!)

      I accept that this is just one hand and a extreme example, however if i started counting dominated hands AK vs AJ or AQ vs A7 or KQ vs K9 I think the facts could be as shocking because I actually thought my AA stood up better than 42%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    • cannell555
      cannell555
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.03.2008 Posts: 2,410
      You cant count just the last 40-50 AA's. You may have won 200 times in a row previously, its just variance. You should use tacking software, and look at your database after 1 million hands. Then you'll relize that its all a case of you remembering the bad hands. I cant stress enough on how you need to be mentally prepared for poker. For any player to have maximum outcome, they need to be top draw in all aspects, and mentality is the most underated of all.

      Goodluck,
      Stiev
    • slickdigital
      slickdigital
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.09.2008 Posts: 20
      i know and accept the 1 million hands argument - but think varience on MTT's specifically and STT in a way are a different ball park - those 40 or 50 hands incorporates hundereds of hours of play, while I play multiple STT's and 2 or 3 MTT's at a time, I tend to work a structure to allow me to pay enough attention to the games (as that element, table perception, player habits etc) is what I enjoy about the game, ultimatly the mental element of the game..

      The reason mental strength is overseen by many players is because they play a maths based game, or general fish/donk game or get bored quickly and dont have the mental attirbutes to build that area)))

      We can debate/discuss all day about the finer points of poker etc, but ultimatly when your on the tables ( especially at low limits) most goes out the window, because your oppent is either playing 8 tables at once, or has no concept as to what type of players are on their table - though it doesnt matter because they ultimatly know they can push in rightly or wrongly and the numbers game will give them there luck enough to keep them playing/enjoying the game...

      I thank you Stiev for your views, my gripes are not aimed at players like you who understand/discuss the game - rather the bingo calling chancers who make me feel its not poker anymore, just a different type of lotto>....