ICM Trainer - Hand 4,6,7 lesson 6

    • slickdigital
      slickdigital
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.09.2008 Posts: 20
      I have just downloaded ICM trainer and was going through it, I started getting a few crosses mostly in similar situations, and wanted clarity or views please))))

      There were several situations where I was faced with PP's when low stacked and blinds representing 20% plus of my stack.

      While that I accept going 3rd all in with 1010 is not normally recommended, there are times where you need to either make a stand or push on for the win.

      The software is great but ultimatly surly there are many other factors which would go against an incorrect answer.

      Also many of the examples are when you are very short handed, therefore is the software taking into account the increase in hand values??

      Also as a player I very rarely push below 99 - however online many players give over valuations with low pp's hands, therefore making hands that would normally fold with more playable....

      I must stress that I am new here and am keen to learn and dont want to sound like i'm slagging the software its just my feedback in my very limited use of it)))
  • 5 replies
    • SoyCD
      SoyCD
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.02.2008 Posts: 6,356
      Hello slickdigital,

      Its good that you are asking about this :)

      The software itself is just an execution of ICM strategy (Independent Chip Model)

      http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/sng/175/
      http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/sng/208/

      The reasons for why you are usually so shortstacked is because it is actually an endgame strategy which applies monetary value to your chips. It combines the EV of your hand to the $EV of your subsequent payout. Most of the examples put you in a bubble situation and you or your opponent risks getting eliminated without getting ITM when calling.

      This bubble situation is important for the calling and pushing ranges since it has a great influence on the $EV (so your equity compared to the money you win).

      As an example from the article


      $10+$1 PartyPoker SnG, Blinds 300/600
      CO 8000
      BU 2000
      SB 6000
      BB 4000 (Hero)
      CO folds, BU folds, SB pushs All-In 6000, Hero AT ??


      We believe that the SB will often put us under pressure, pushing his hand 85% of the time. It would be +EV to call against this handrange with ATo. But is it also +$EV?

      There are 3 scenarios for us:

      * Fold
      * Call & Win
      * Call & Lose

      We use an ICM calculator to get the $EV for all 3:

      $EV(Fold): 21.50$ with 3400 Chips
      $EV(Call&Win): 34.40$ with 8000 Chips
      $EV(Call&Lose): 0$ with 0 Chips

      To get $EV(Call), we must weight the last two cases with the probability of winning: (we will win 58% of the time against his range)

      $EV(Call) = 0.58*$EV(Call&Win)+0.42*$EV(Call&Lose) = 0.58*$34.4 = ~$20

      Now we compare $EV(fold) with $EV(Call) and see that it would be better to fold here, even if we will have fewer chips on average. The reason is that we'll bust on the bubble 42% of the time with a call even though there's another short stack at the table. He would profit greatly from our call. For the SB, a call from us would be -$EV (and also -EV). In this example, a fold would even be correct even if the SB pushed with any two cards.
      I suggest you study the material with utmost diligence since it will greatly improve your understanding of SNG play and thus also increase your results in practice.

      Best regards,
      SoyCD
    • slickdigital
      slickdigital
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.09.2008 Posts: 20
      Thanks Soy... I am wadeing my way through info left right and center!!! But for danager of overload I would ask a few questions along the way)))

      I agree with the principles and understand on a basic level the processes you are using, however it does somewhat take out the human factor of the game( something I really hate with online vs live!!!)

      Just say I play on a table for 2 hours in a torny, 3 players stay on there through the event a couple leave and come back - you have notes on say 5 or 6 players on your table, should your notes/perceptions etc take presidence over calculations???
    • SoyCD
      SoyCD
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.02.2008 Posts: 6,356
      Its always good to question everything :) As long as you are open to new things - always questioning and critically analysing everything is the way to go.

      To once again quote the article
      The publishers of ICM software and many players who play strictly according to the $EV as calculated by the ICM will tell you that it is a perfect and indeed the only correct mode of play. This is not so. As we said in the beginning, the ICM neglects player skill, table image, and position. Even if player skill is included in the ICM program with an edge input, it still does not capture all the various skills of the opposition. Suppose a decision raises the chance that I will go heads up against a complete fish. This could then be a deciding factor. Or if I'm sitting UTG with 6 players then my 5 BB stack is clearly worth less than it would be on the button. The optimal mode of play is therefore different from the ICM when the decision is very hard. However, strict ICM strategy is very close to the optimal mode and is therefore a winning strategy on almost all limits.
      I would always take notes/perception into a consideration before making a move. ICM is simply a concept which helps you make these decisions.

      When you start studying ICM you get to think a lot about fold equity, bubble situations and equity of certain ranges vs. other ranges. If you then combine these things with notes/reads and other elements you are on the way of becoming a much stronger player in terms of having a good understanding of poker fundamentals.
    • slickdigital
      slickdigital
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.09.2008 Posts: 20
      Just for the record I did pass each of the lessons ( first time of asking!!) I also started to answer so "the software" would accept it as the right answer...

      What I have gained using the software is the fundementals highlighted in the software are replications of many players I come across, I always think I give to much respect to players, folding hands many others would call like a snap - so with that fresh in my mind, I feel confident that I can use the insight to play more agressive - added to my understanding of "poker fundementals" this software could have been "what I was looking for"

      So thanks very much - I have already passed on a possible referal and would like to say I have been on many poker forums and the environment you have is excellent...well done
    • SoyCD
      SoyCD
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.02.2008 Posts: 6,356
      Hello slickdigital


      What I have gained using the software is the fundementals highlighted in the software are replications of many players I come across, I always think I give to much respect to players, folding hands many others would call like a snap - so with that fresh in my mind, I feel confident that I can use the insight to play more agressive - added to my understanding of "poker fundementals" this software could have been "what I was looking for"
      It is important to remember that there is a huge difference between calling and pushing. While it is "ok" to push a large range of hands - you need to actually stay very tight when it comes to calling.

      Although its "an easy push" with 87s from the button against 2 midstacked players in the blinds (on the bubble) while there is still a shortstack in the game it doesn't mean you should start calling pushes from these midstacks loosely as well (even if you might know they are relatively loose).

      I can only recommend reading more of the articles and studying the material of SNG play as it is actually quite interesting and complex.

      Best regards,
      SoyCD