4 bet bluff hand selection

    • muel294
      muel294
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.06.2009 Posts: 1,213
      Hi All,

      Just wondering what sorts of hands we should be 4 betting as a bluff with/ I know that we should pick hands that expect to be behind our opponents but with blockers and we expect our opponent to fold better hands or be 3b'ing wide enough so we can exploit their loose 3b'ing range?

      At the moment I am using hands like weak Kx or Ax that aren't strong enough to call with and I know I will most likely be bluffing with. eg, k4 A4 etc

      Should I instead use hands like KT, KJ and A9 etc that have slightly higher equity / flop slighty better?

      Cheers
  • 9 replies
    • RasTweet
      RasTweet
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.12.2009 Posts: 4,553
      Hey muel294

      Just moved your thread. I think it's better here because coaches lurk around here as well.

      I can't give you any advice though since I don't know enough about 4 betting myself.

      Best regards

      RasTweet
    • holmeboy
      holmeboy
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.01.2010 Posts: 1,336
      The best hands you're folding. Like with 3b bluffing

      eg. A standard UTG range:

      22+, ATs+, KTs+, QTs+, J9s+, T9s, 98s, AJo+, KQo

      You might 4b something like KK+ for 4b/c; call AK, TT-QQ, and maybe KQs/AQs.

      That leaves hands like AQo/KQo/AJ as the best hands you are folding so those are the ones I'd use as a 4b/f. Because you're only 4b/c 12 combos you should only be 4b/f ~12 combos so you could just use AQo
    • Rihard4a
      Rihard4a
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.09.2010 Posts: 2,061
      Nobody is gonna give you a definite answer here.

      Why we want to 4bet bluff?
      Are we IP or OOP?
      How often does villain 3bet?
      How often does he fold to 4bet?
      Do we know his 5 betting/shoving range?

      If you 4bet someone just because you have blockers, it is kinda a mistake. There are many other factors you want to consider apart hand strength. Your image is also important, just because villain 3bet 12% range vs one player doesn't mean he 3bets the same range vs you. :)
    • muel294
      muel294
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.06.2009 Posts: 1,213
      I am aware that it is dependent on a number of other factors as you have mentioned but I was hoping to get some generalisations on the topic.

      Lets assume we have been stealing 1st in from LP relentlessly. Blinds / BU (CO vs BU) is playing back by 3b'ing a polarised range. I tend to fold to 3b quite frequently so I assume that this might be the correct adjustment from villain(s) vs me. Therefore they should be bluffing me more I guess.

      What I'm looking for at the moment is a starting off point. Because at the moment I'm a bit clueless.
    • Tomaloc
      Tomaloc
      Silver
      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 6,881
      not sure exactly what you mean on the first post...

      if you have to make a choice between KJ and K4s, you pick KJ ofc.
      however, if KJ just goes into you calling range for that spot, then what's the next better hand you are folding?

      if say you don't want to call KT, and then you are building your 4betting range, and then you have to make a choice between 4betting KT or K2s, well... obv is obv.
      Ax is an exception as, since your Ax will generally be dominated anyway, A2-A5s > A9s because of wheel potential.

      ofc, though, from a exploitative pov if the guy is exploitatively 3bet/folding wide you can probably get away for a while with just 4betting 100% Ax. anyway the point is, you add the better hands you'd fold... like, before 4betting K2s first you should 4bet at least all Axs and all other Kxs.
    • muel294
      muel294
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.06.2009 Posts: 1,213
      thanks for the feedback all

      Tomaloc and holmeboy have basically given me what I was looking for. The reason I asked is because I have been just picking random AX and KX that are too weak to call 3b's with and just click it back vs people who I feel are 3b'ing me too much.

      Obviously they start 3b/calling or 3b/5b because I 4b too much. Therefore it dawned on me that it is probably better to pick hands with better equities and postflop playability.

      What I am trying to get used to now is: the concept of picking the next weaker hand that I would not call the 3b with and use it to 4b with, in the same fashion we would when constructing 3b'ing ranges or value betting thinner etc.

      Thus far this concept had eluded me.
    • Tomaloc
      Tomaloc
      Silver
      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 6,881
      it also depends how they are adjusting.
      the less they call (as in, they only 5bet or fold) the more you should add blockers, the more they call (and so you go postflop) the more you want playability, so T9s can be potentially better than KTo.

      if you are 4betting K4 that's either a mistake in range construction or you are wide as hell :f_biggrin: (which may be fine in vacuum, but is almost definitely too wide against any half decent reg in the long run)
    • ProfitsofDoom
      ProfitsofDoom
      Basic
      Joined: 29.08.2012 Posts: 177
      There is a good free vid by Leakbuster on Youtube called "4 bet bluffing made easy". I found it really helpful, and covers some of the math, good hands and spots for 4 bet bluffs, etc. It is worth checking out.
    • muel294
      muel294
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.06.2009 Posts: 1,213
      thanks ProfitsofDoom I will check it out.