Usable list for bankroll challenge

    • pokerboy198229
      pokerboy198229
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.08.2011 Posts: 1,172
      Best collegues,

      If we could make a list of pokersites with easy/soft games each level, how would ie look like?

      2NL -
      5NL -
      10NL -
      25NL -
      50NL -
      100NL -
      200NL -
      400NL -

      Could u help me and meybe yourself?

      Thanks in advance.
  • 17 replies
    • Hashkan
      Hashkan
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.08.2011 Posts: 315
      Pokerstars if BY FAR the best pokersite for any type of poker, any limit and by far biggest traffic/most fish
    • la55i
      la55i
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 27.01.2013 Posts: 6,416
      Originally posted by Hashkan
      Pokerstars if BY FAR the best pokersite for any type of poker, any limit and by far biggest traffic/most fish
      Agree. I have also played at Full Tilt. There is a lot of fish and bad regs too. Especially in 'New to the game' tables. My winrate was something like 40bb/100hands in those tables.

      e: I played NL2 and NL5.
    • RasTweet
      RasTweet
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.12.2009 Posts: 4,553
      Hey everyone.

      I don't agree with that to be honest. I've played on rooms where the players where way worse then on stars. Sure the traffic is awesome but I don't think it's the softest field.

      I can't say what room has the softest field on a certain limit though. Never played on all the rooms that are available.

      Regards

      RasTweet
    • pokerboy198229
      pokerboy198229
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.08.2011 Posts: 1,172
      Originally posted by RasTweet
      Hey everyone.

      I don't agree with that to be honest. I've played on rooms where the players where way worse then on stars. Sure the traffic is awesome but I don't think it's the softest field.

      I can't say what room has the softest field on a certain limit though. Never played on all the rooms that are available.

      I agree on Stars it's more diffcult to make a good profit, less donks, more tight fish.
    • Rihard4a
      Rihard4a
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.09.2010 Posts: 2,064
      If you look for the softest field, you ain't gonna be a good poker player. ;) Just sayin'. Imo Stars is the best place to play. Traffic is the most important when you are cash game player. MTT guys probably would want to have less traffic to have less variance. But Stars is a must play place for anyone, especially they have good VIP program if you hit SN every year. IMO learn to exploit the regs and you won't need to look for sites with soft field.
    • Rihard4a
      Rihard4a
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.09.2010 Posts: 2,064
      Originally posted by pokerboy198229
      Originally posted by RasTweet
      Hey everyone.

      I don't agree with that to be honest. I've played on rooms where the players where way worse then on stars. Sure the traffic is awesome but I don't think it's the softest field.

      I can't say what room has the softest field on a certain limit though. Never played on all the rooms that are available.

      I agree on Stars it's more diffcult to make a good profit, less donks, more tight fish.
      Well then you are not playing well enough. Just because someone didn't donk a stack to you, doesn't mean that the problem is because they are tight or w/e. Most likely the problem lies in your decisions which made them not spew. :)
    • RasTweet
      RasTweet
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.12.2009 Posts: 4,553
      Hey Rihard

      I disagree with both of your posts. We as poker players want to make money in the end. If you look for the softest field it doesn't mean that you aren't a good player but you want to make the most money.

      A lot of people say "if you want to become the best you have to play with the best". This means play on stars. Do I want to become the best? Do I want to play with the best? Hell no! I want to make a truckload of money. Is that going to come from 'the best' or the weak regs?

      One more interesting thing imo. Lets say you play nl10 and you keep failing at shooting at nl25 whats the problem? Are the fish better or worse at nl25? Well probably they are the same maybe a little bit less worse. But the regs are much better. It's because of the regs that you keep failing the shot, not because of the fish. Now if there was a room where the regs on nl25 are on the same level as the nl10 regs on stars I think it's a mistake not to move.

      But that is my very own honest opinion. I don't want to play nl50 on stars and be BE when I can play nl100 and be a winner somewhere else.

      Traffic wise you are very right indeed though. Traffic is something very important for a cash game player and if there is no traffic the field doesn't matter anymore.

      Best regards

      RasTweet
    • TinoLaan
      TinoLaan
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.10.2011 Posts: 6,432
      I agree with Ras on this one. Looking for the softest field is anything but a sign of weakness. In fact, it's a smart thing to do. The softer the field, the more money you can make. Of course if there's no traffic, then that's a whole other story even if the field is super soft :)
    • Rihard4a
      Rihard4a
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.09.2010 Posts: 2,064
      Hey,

      The thing about smaller sites and pokerstars, the fish/reg ratio is bigger on Stars, and less on small sites. And as a profitable player as you say, you would want to play on a site where you pay less rake. 3bb/100 (pre rake) winner on Stars is probably bigger winner than player on smaller site with 5bb/100 (pre rake). I don't see why you want to sacrifice big chunk of your profit just because field is "softer". But the field is the same roughly, you just encounter the regs maybe less in bigger field than smaller. Like how often would you encounter a reg in a field of 200 players and how often in a field of 1000 players?

      Stars > any site profit wise. It's not about playing vs the best to be the best. It is about learning how to play to not be afraid to play vs regs. If you are not confident enough to make +EV decisions vs regs then your decision making lacks something. You play the same vs regs and fish, you only adjust depending on their style of play.


      Regards,

      Rihard
    • RasTweet
      RasTweet
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.12.2009 Posts: 4,553
      Well the ratio might be bigger. But the regs on nl20 speed are so bad they count often as fish as well so that evens out again. And from what I've seen there are quiet a few of regs at nl25 zoom. BUT I haven't played a massive amount of hands there yet.

      And I do agree with you about the rake, but everyone should try to get as much rake back as one can. On Coral I get points and if I exchange them I have some decent RB. I also had a FDB, then there are the gemstone promotions etc so even more RB.

      Also when you are playing micro's it probably doesn't matter where you are playing too much but I think once you get to nl50 stars will be much more reggy and you just want to play a softer field.

      Again I do get what you are saying and why you are saying it. This is just my opinion.

      Regards

      RasTweet
    • pokerboy198229
      pokerboy198229
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.08.2011 Posts: 1,172
      Originally posted by Rihard4a
      Hey,

      The thing about smaller sites and pokerstars, the fish/reg ratio is bigger on Stars, and less on small sites. And as a profitable player as you say, you would want to play on a site where you pay less rake. 3bb/100 (pre rake) winner on Stars is probably bigger winner than player on smaller site with 5bb/100 (pre rake). I don't see why you want to sacrifice big chunk of your profit just because field is "softer". But the field is the same roughly, you just encounter the regs maybe less in bigger field than smaller. Like how often would you encounter a reg in a field of 200 players and how often in a field of 1000 players?

      Stars > any site profit wise. It's not about playing vs the best to be the best. It is about learning how to play to not be afraid to play vs regs. If you are not confident enough to make +EV decisions vs regs then your decision making lacks something. You play the same vs regs and fish, you only adjust depending on their style of play.


      Regards,

      Rihard
      Hey Rihard,

      Its not about regs at all. Actually i do fine against reg: balancing my 3bets/4bets, same idea. . Still its not the profit you make. You make your money when u moved all in (pre-postflop) and u doubled up.
      I do mean something else: getting payed of huge. Im talking about how bad the fish are.
      On Stars fish more likely check calling with bad hands, they do not get all in with 2 pair when its obvious 4 cards for straight or flushes, they definitely not check raising all in with that. So most of the times you get paid, but not a sufficient stack of money. Conclusion: on Stars we have more fish/less donks. On other sites I just experience less fish/more donks. Thats how I can beat the variance in long term.

      So by saying soft, i do mean making more money from each fish/donk per made hand. And of course like by Stars balancing my range against regs.

      So i think when the proportion of very bad players is bigger than tight fisf/regs, u just make more money, and its really big, believe me.
    • Rihard4a
      Rihard4a
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.09.2010 Posts: 2,064
      Originally posted by pokerboy198229
      Originally posted by Rihard4a
      Hey,

      The thing about smaller sites and pokerstars, the fish/reg ratio is bigger on Stars, and less on small sites. And as a profitable player as you say, you would want to play on a site where you pay less rake. 3bb/100 (pre rake) winner on Stars is probably bigger winner than player on smaller site with 5bb/100 (pre rake). I don't see why you want to sacrifice big chunk of your profit just because field is "softer". But the field is the same roughly, you just encounter the regs maybe less in bigger field than smaller. Like how often would you encounter a reg in a field of 200 players and how often in a field of 1000 players?

      Stars > any site profit wise. It's not about playing vs the best to be the best. It is about learning how to play to not be afraid to play vs regs. If you are not confident enough to make +EV decisions vs regs then your decision making lacks something. You play the same vs regs and fish, you only adjust depending on their style of play.


      Regards,

      Rihard
      Hey Rihard,

      Its not about regs at all. Actually i do fine against reg: balancing my 3bets/4bets, same idea. . Still its not the profit you make. You make your money when u moved all in (pre-postflop) and u doubled up.
      I do mean something else: getting payed of huge. Im talking about how bad the fish are.
      On Stars fish more likely check calling with bad hands, they do not get all in with 2 pair when its obvious 4 cards for straight or flushes, they definitely not check raising all in with that. So most of the times you get paid, but not a sufficient stack of money. Conclusion: on Stars we have more fish/less donks. On other sites I just experience less fish/more donks. Thats how I can beat the variance in long term.

      So by saying soft, i do mean making more money from each fish/donk per made hand. And of course like by Stars balancing my range against regs.

      So i think when the proportion of very bad players is bigger than tight fisf/regs, u just make more money, and its really big, believe me.
      You perceive poker from the wrong angle. :) Poker is not about hitting big hands getting payed off. Because once that happens, there is not much skill involved, because when you hit a set and opponent a strong draw, the money is getting in anyway no matter how you play. You make money from players folding to you as much as possible, the more you can make them fold, the bigger your profit is.

      Regards,

      Rihard
    • pokerboy198229
      pokerboy198229
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.08.2011 Posts: 1,172
      Originally posted by Rihard4a
      Originally posted by pokerboy198229
      Originally posted by Rihard4a
      Hey,

      The thing about smaller sites and pokerstars, the fish/reg ratio is bigger on Stars, and less on small sites. And as a profitable player as you say, you would want to play on a site where you pay less rake. 3bb/100 (pre rake) winner on Stars is probably bigger winner than player on smaller site with 5bb/100 (pre rake). I don't see why you want to sacrifice big chunk of your profit just because field is "softer". But the field is the same roughly, you just encounter the regs maybe less in bigger field than smaller. Like how often would you encounter a reg in a field of 200 players and how often in a field of 1000 players?

      Stars > any site profit wise. It's not about playing vs the best to be the best. It is about learning how to play to not be afraid to play vs regs. If you are not confident enough to make +EV decisions vs regs then your decision making lacks something. You play the same vs regs and fish, you only adjust depending on their style of play.


      Regards,

      Rihard
      Hey Rihard,

      Its not about regs at all. Actually i do fine against reg: balancing my 3bets/4bets, same idea. . Still its not the profit you make. You make your money when u moved all in (pre-postflop) and u doubled up.
      I do mean something else: getting payed of huge. Im talking about how bad the fish are.
      On Stars fish more likely check calling with bad hands, they do not get all in with 2 pair when its obvious 4 cards for straight or flushes, they definitely not check raising all in with that. So most of the times you get paid, but not a sufficient stack of money. Conclusion: on Stars we have more fish/less donks. On other sites I just experience less fish/more donks. Thats how I can beat the variance in long term.

      So by saying soft, i do mean making more money from each fish/donk per made hand. And of course like by Stars balancing my range against regs.

      So i think when the proportion of very bad players is bigger than tight fisf/regs, u just make more money, and its really big, believe me.
      You perceive poker from the wrong angle. :) Poker is not about hitting big hands getting payed off. Because once that happens, there is not much skill involved, because when you hit a set and opponent a strong draw, the money is getting in anyway no matter how you play. You make money from players folding to you as much as possible, the more you can make them fold, the bigger your profit is.

      Regards,

      Rihard
      Ok, i really do understand what you mean, and i do believe you are right.

      Ik know im not good enough to play 25NL on Stars, was loosing had bad run, wasnt payed enough to beat the variance. Of course I could hire a coach, learn more and maybe after 3 months get better and beat the stakes.

      But now I have the question for you? Why should i do that if my winrate on 25Nl on onther site is about 7.5 times bigger and my play is still good enogh. Whats the point right now? Maybe i can do that later if i move up to 50Nl, but why should i bother right now. Even if i ever make millions i would never choose to play with dwan, doyle, laak. Why? I know some casinos's and there i can make more money. Thats poker all about : put yourself in positions/situations where you have more chance to win.
    • Rihard4a
      Rihard4a
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.09.2010 Posts: 2,064
      If you have such a superb winrate on other sites, then it would take you a week in order to get a proper coach which could help you beat stars NL100 4bb/100 or even higher winrate. But then again, winrate shouldn't really matter. The most and only important thing is hourly rate.

      Obviously it is your choice to not play where it is better. And saying that on other site your w/r is bigger just because it is the OTHER site and not Stars is a bit superstitious[?] I think. Of course you could've lost your shot while playing on Stars due to variance, but maybe not. :) People tend to be so afraid of regs that they forget what poker is all about..

      Regards,

      Rihard
    • Shuttled
      Shuttled
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.09.2007 Posts: 149
      I think that all these discussions still havent answered the question of the thread :f_confused:
    • pokerboy198229
      pokerboy198229
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.08.2011 Posts: 1,172
      Originally posted by Rihard4a
      If you have such a superb winrate on other sites, then it would take you a week in order to get a proper coach which could help you beat stars NL100 4bb/100 or even higher winrate. But then again, winrate shouldn't really matter. The most and only important thing is hourly rate.

      Obviously it is your choice to not play where it is better. And saying that on other site your w/r is bigger just because it is the OTHER site and not Stars is a bit superstitious[?] I think. Of course you could've lost your shot while playing on Stars due to variance, but maybe not. :) People tend to be so afraid of regs that they forget what poker is all about..

      Regards,

      Rihard
      Rihard,

      U re right, i choose for easy games just to make more money and not to be better, not right now. The point is about Stars its a best pokerprovider in the world, it attracts the best, even the fish on Stars is better than an average fish.

      They just good, and even if i get better and finally can beat soem midstakes: the proces of making money (level up) will go slow because of full ring of regs/tight scary fish and a variance. U do not make very quickly money jumps.

      Lets take some examples, when u play against fish u just make him check calling bad hands: winning like 20-30BB.
      Against reg pre-flop its more like 55-45, 60-40,70-30. Postflop u wont take a huge pots more often to make profitable playing vs regs.
      So summing up: the both examples shows us that u wont be able to beat the variance very quickly just because of not getting paid huge at regular basis.
      To make bigger jumps in your bankroll u need more donks in the game, who just not thinking but clicking some buttons.

      I found some videos below as an example:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jkwNxZLoSc

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQDXA1_YJCc
    • Rihard4a
      Rihard4a
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.09.2010 Posts: 2,064
      :s_biggrin: