SNG downswing for 20bi as we speak

    • Puciek
      Puciek
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      Joined: 23.01.2008 Posts: 657
      Time to whine!
      For last days i've been stuck for quite huge sng downsing (9man speaking) and i need some pats on the backs.

      Some stats (as i just checked with tracker)
      - 3bi lost due to my mistake
      - 5bi lost on my pair is lower than your pair (ie. QQ vs KK, KK vs AA, 77 vs AA)
      - 12bi lost on pure bullshit

      Some examples:

      - AA to Q7
      - AJ to A8 (he hit quads)
      - AA to 23o (fullhouse on floop anyone?)
      - AK to J2
      - KK to 22

      Never had SO huge downswing with so many bullshit badbeats so meh, cheer me up ;p
  • 19 replies
    • cannell555
      cannell555
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      Joined: 06.03.2008 Posts: 2,410
      Hi Puciek,

      Varience is a bitch!!

      I want you to do a few of things, which I think will help you.

      1st Look at how many times you were dealt AA since this swing began.

      2nd Look at how many times you were dealt KK since this swing began.

      3rd Post the results in this thread. Also post the winning percentages of these hands for your whole samplesize.


      The reason I mention this is because....

      Your AA and KK (for example) cant win every time. You need to relise that you will loose with these hands on occasions. Even if you face 72o, you will loose almost 12% of the time. You can have a spell when AA will win 100 times on the run, then loose 20 times on the run, and you need to be totally aware of this mentally.

      IMO the mental approach to the game is totally underestimated, and I think its the most important factor for a player to make maximum profits.

      Best regards,
      Stiev
    • p0kerQT
      p0kerQT
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      Joined: 28.03.2008 Posts: 1,300
      I had a 20 buyin downswing too playin $11 sng's, it sucks ass! My problem was multitabling coz I didn't get reads (Now I'll only multitable with stats) And I was playing pretty bad overall, but took a long break and took time to study the articles and now I've recovered from it.

      If you're getting annoyed take a little break to let off some steam, nothing is worse than playing when you're on tilt. Hope this ends soon for you :)
    • Puciek
      Puciek
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      Joined: 23.01.2008 Posts: 657
      Oh i know that AA will win for you a lot more often than loose just that if you get bad beats in larger quanity it gets way, waaaaay over your head. Tho after like 4 you look on his q4 taking all your chips like "hm, like i didn't see that coming" ;p
      So yeah,
      VARIANCE IS A BITCH

      Funny part tho is that if i would follow ps brm, not my own one (a lot tougher to change levels, i like it safe) now i would have to drop to lower limit which would make even harder to grind back what i've lost o.0
    • davidangel
      davidangel
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      Joined: 03.09.2008 Posts: 456
      Nothing you can do about variance.
      $5 BR... $1 SnG.... played perfect PS mathematical poker according to the charts... about 30 games later... down to last 2 games... 2 BIG hands.... got chumed (I know what 23o full house hand you are talking about) both games right on the bubble! $0.07 BR .... carreer over.... back to collecting bottles for rent money :D
      (this example taken from my freeroll account, coaching my wife... hence we stuck to PS strategy, and it was working... many times we went down to last 3, 2 or even last dollar games, at one point it was up to 12BI even)
      Last 2 hands...
      AA vs 23o (flop full house) <--- villian was big chum Blinds100 calls 12BB with 19BB stack preflop
      KK vs big slick (A on the river) <--- villian not so chummy, hey, thats poker.
      Stick with it, and don't play more games at one time than you can handle, if you look at a hand, and you dont know what to do, and you cant find your chart fast enough and another game same thing, you can end up folding when you are supposed to push etc...
      Remember to be objective (self analyzing)
      Find your leaks and fix em, thats all I have done.
    • BusinessGuru
      BusinessGuru
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      Joined: 18.06.2008 Posts: 45
      If you AA is getting beaten by Q 4 and 2 3 off suit then i would imagine you are limping in pre flop and slow playing them. If your gonna do this you've got to accept that sometimes you will get outflopped as the BB could have any two cards. If you dont want to get sucked out by trash play Aces like you would any other premium hand raise it to 3/2.5 bb's even if everyone folds u still pick up the blinds and dont have to go through the psychological stress of having you Aces beaten by trash
    • Puciek
      Puciek
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      Joined: 23.01.2008 Posts: 657
      Originally posted by BusinessGuru
      If you AA is getting beaten by Q 4 and 2 3 off suit then i would imagine you are limping in pre flop and slow playing them. If your gonna do this you've got to accept that sometimes you will get outflopped as the BB could have any two cards. If you dont want to get sucked out by trash play Aces like you would any other premium hand raise it to 3/2.5 bb's even if everyone folds u still pick up the blinds and dont have to go through the psychological stress of having you Aces beaten by trash
      No lol, simply donks call raise with Q4 and then miracle happends :D
      I'm not a donkey, i know when slowplay aces and thats in top3 low m action :D
    • Grimzor
      Grimzor
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      Joined: 28.03.2008 Posts: 421
      I agree with everything cannell said. Even if you play everything prefectly you will still get suckouts and loose some hands. its just pure math - AA will be losing hand even against 72o on certain % of occasions. its just the way it is. Sometimes i find it hard to deal with this but i am trying to see logic behind it. And even though its hard to you have to look on bigger scale - if you are winning player you just have to keep your game up and everything will sort out eventually. And thats what i wish you - play your best game, minimize your losses caused by your mistakes and if you are winning player - everything will go up sooner or later. Good luck!
    • TTT241
      TTT241
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      Joined: 27.09.2008 Posts: 452
      you cannot look into the charts during the game

      if you just consider your hand and not what the others are doing you cannot win higher limits.

      You have to be more interested in others hands than your one. your one has to be pure automated approach.

      TTT
    • Puciek
      Puciek
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      Joined: 23.01.2008 Posts: 657
      Originally posted by TTT241
      you cannot look into the charts during the game

      if you just consider your hand and not what the others are doing you cannot win higher limits.

      You have to be more interested in others hands than your one. your one has to be pure automated approach.

      TTT
      The hell you say, so i shouldn't sit with those lovely charts anymore and search 5 minutes to find how to play my hand ? Cruel.
      On side note, i'm not playing according to charts from looong time, now i preffer to stick to other teachers like harrington, sklansky or brunson, and i'm aware of thinking about other ppl cards :P
    • davidangel
      davidangel
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      Joined: 03.09.2008 Posts: 456
      Why not use charts? Why not use stats, and a HUD? Use every single edge you have at all times. I like to see my hand, make my table read, and then think what to do. Then I look at the chart, and if it agrees with me we go for the gold. If not I reconsider and try to take in the larger game dynamics, sometimes even folding on the side of caution in marginal situations.
      My desktop is one big poker chart, kind of like a pirates treasure map.
      Ahoy :D
    • RRtwos
      RRtwos
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      Joined: 18.02.2008 Posts: 180
      Hey davidangel..

      I'm from he dutch community but got a question...

      You play sng's? I want to use some software for the sng's, what do you use?

      Think that when your multitabling also at sng's its very usefull!
      Play 5 tables at a time wtihout software and only charts..

      And by the way, when it's according to ICm i push my Q4 (even against AA) all the time hehehe....
    • Grimzor
      Grimzor
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      Joined: 28.03.2008 Posts: 421
      Originally posted by davidangel
      Why not use charts?
      Because charts cannot take into account all the factors what you should consider when playing a hand. They dont consider stack sizes, player statistics, table image, bet amounts etc. Charts are made so you get general idea about how you should play. When you get experience you slowly forget about charts and use your head for making decisions.

      I actually dont know any chart so maybe my examples might be wrong but hear them anyway. I guess that in charts hand like 99 is fold if more than one raise is before you. But lets say you are on BB and you get minraise and minreraise + 2 callers before you. You can easily have good enough pot and implied odds for call now.

      Or like 78s in BB or on BTN against minraise. Or ATs against guy that raises preflop 30% of hands. Charts dont say that you should do this against minraise but that against regular raise even though raise amount can change everything. And we cant fold many hands we should fold against TAG`s raise if raiser is donk who likes to raise J7o from UTG.

      Besides there are moves that you cant put in charts - for example squeeze play. Then if you play strictly as charts say you may become readable - mixing up your play helps too. Thats why charts become secondary after a while.

      And imo using charts is kinda thing for cash games not SNGs unless its some kinda pushing hand chart. Changing blind levels and SNG dynamics change your play too.
    • RRtwos
      RRtwos
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      Joined: 18.02.2008 Posts: 180
      That's true but to have a guideline the charts and i mean also the pushing charts (part of ICM) are always very important.

      And calling 99 after minraise minraise.... can be profitable but not if it costs 20% of your stack to call!
      Thats why in the "beginning" it's more profitable to play according the charts than to play from your own "head"????
    • Puciek
      Puciek
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      Joined: 23.01.2008 Posts: 657
      Grimzor got pretty much it about charts, remember that they were designed to give new players to at least not fail prefloop. Later you will understand why you make this and that move (chart is just effect, you don't know why) and will make your moves based on that knownledge, not from your own "head".
      You will simply learn WHY and WHEN make move based on:
      - table action
      - other players image
      - your image
      - ratio of your and theyr stack
      - theyr hand range
      - finaly your hand.
      With chart, you care only about table action and your hole cards while when you will understand resoning behind this chart, you wil stop using it because you will not have any problem to make correct play that will differ from it, based on what's going on.
    • BusinessGuru
      BusinessGuru
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      Joined: 18.06.2008 Posts: 45
      What site and what limit do u play out of interest?
    • Puciek
      Puciek
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      Joined: 23.01.2008 Posts: 657
      Stars, 11$ sngs
    • davidangel
      davidangel
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      Joined: 03.09.2008 Posts: 456
      Originally posted by RRtwos
      Hey davidangel..

      I'm from he dutch community but got a question...

      You play sng's? I want to use some software for the sng's, what do you use?

      Think that when your multitabling also at sng's its very usefull!
      Play 5 tables at a time wtihout software and only charts..

      I use elephant since I am an SSSr
      I play SnGs for a change up every now and then. I am also teaching my wife how to play them. At low limits you can mass table and stick to the charts, play like a robot and you make money. Its that easy.
      I like live SnG as well, they complain when I lay all my charts on the table :D Kidding, really, I do like the charts online tho, and like I said before, I make the table read and playcall first, then I make sure the move is +EV (chart tells me this)
    • sirilidion
      sirilidion
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      Joined: 15.04.2008 Posts: 1,575
      Originally posted by Puciek
      Originally posted by TTT241
      you cannot look into the charts during the game

      if you just consider your hand and not what the others are doing you cannot win higher limits.

      You have to be more interested in others hands than your one. your one has to be pure automated approach.

      TTT
      The hell you say, so i shouldn't sit with those lovely charts anymore and search 5 minutes to find how to play my hand ? Cruel.
      On side note, i'm not playing according to charts from looong time, now i preffer to stick to other teachers like harrington, sklansky or brunson, and i'm aware of thinking about other ppl cards :P
      you have a real leak in you're game if you follow the looser range of hands like in harrington,slansky and brunson. The problem here is harrington is are books mainly on mtt's while brunson is more a book on high limit cashgames. The reason why the strategy is so tight is that you get value out of player busting out early. Which increase you're chances of getting in the money. the blinds are small then so there is no reason too gamble there. When the blinds get higher there will be more value in the pot and those give you more reasons to get involved more through stealing. when the blinds get really high you wan't to push or fold when you're stack becomes lower then 13BB because only the blinds in the pot give you already good value and save the fancy stuff for when you have build up an high enough bankroll to be playing the higher SnG's where there are more players that think :D . I highly recommend you too at least keep stipt too the strategy untill you build up an nice bankroll. then you can adjust a little on tells you get by tracker notes or other things. Also follow coaching, watch videos, post hands and study hands posted on SnG's. Hope this will help you're game and hope you're downswing will end soon ;)
    • Puciek
      Puciek
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      Joined: 23.01.2008 Posts: 657
      Actualy strategy in HoH works more than fine, after some adjustments. I don't blindly follow what they've wrote without using my brain, by practice and experiments i've adjusted them to low limits play.
      Also i base a lot of my play on reads, betting patterns and general table observation, i'm not one of this players who don't care about table at all and play hand like it's first one in tournament.
      Dunno where did you read to gamble all your chips in early tournament stages, in hohs it's clearly stated that if you are in comfortable stack size, you should gamble less.
      I agree that more advanced moves mostly won't fit into these games, that's why i perform them only against ppl i know that they are good, again it's not no-brainer but actualy adjusting.

      On the other hand, super system method of "freerolling" is just great with low-m 3-5 ppl situation on weak-aggressive/passive table where you can literaly more than triple up just on pure steals, and when you eventualy run into someone, you almost always got more than enought chips to survive this beat and be in great shape (actualy one fish gave me lecture that this is crap play and how much i suck because i do that and that he is ahead against my any allin, on question "why won't you call me then?" he told that he won't risk chips unless he got top10% hand :D [it was very low m situation with stacks around 4-13]).

      As for sklansky, his books are overall great practice for purely matchematical approach of poker and how to adjust your gameplay to low limit plays. Sure, they are cashgame books but you still can grab some ideas from them.

      And, well you may see me in sng part of hands evaluation, most on side helping ppl, and sometimes i'm even right :P

      Also consider that i exacly wrote on how many bis i've lost on badbeats, and how many on mistakes ;)