Problem to mid-stakes showdown winnings

    • hazeleyes92
      hazeleyes92
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.02.2012 Posts: 642
      everyone talks about the loss of the red line..

      I have the opposite problem!!

      What do you recommend to increase're bloody showdown? I'm talking about tables with many good regular

      place my various stat:




      overall:



      position:



      game much at the tables zoom between NL100 and NL200

      my hud in the last 20k hand in bad bad run:

      VPIP 27 PFR 23 WTSD 28 W$SD 41 3bet 11,1% 4betrange 5
      3b and foldto3b for any position:
      UTG-middle 3b 7,4 fold 40
      CUToff vs BTN 3b 18,9 fold 50
      CUToff vs blind 3b 9,7 fold 72
      BTN vs blind 3b 17,2 fold 69
      SB vs BB 3b 20 fold 67

      betvs missed 64 donkbet 10 CRflop 21 foldvsCR 37 Raiseturn 27 foldvsRaiseTurn 33



      Thank you all for advice.. bye
  • 10 replies
    • HuhtalaJ
      HuhtalaJ
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.04.2010 Posts: 7,166
      I noticed that your river call efficiency is only 1.1. That in addition to skyrocketing red line and plummeting blue line could possibly indicate that you take way too many (weak) hands to showdown especially by calling on the river. Perhaps you bluff catch too much?

      Other than that, could it be possible that you don't fire the 3rd barrel as a bluff often enough in position or don't fire it often enough with value hands? How do you feel about your own leaks youself, perhaps they are behind it? Is there something particular and regularly occuring that makes you feel uncomfortable at the tables?
    • getdotacom
      getdotacom
      Black
      Joined: 06.04.2008 Posts: 607
      Wow. This is extremely interesting. I've no idea how to get positive redline, but I guess there is no point if it happens like this :)

      1) I think you're extremely aggressive. 4.6 Agg% is super uncommon nowadays. At least in midstakes. Do you ever call ? Your barreling frequencies are pretty high, which comes with aggression obviously, but, tbh, you're my favorite type of player to play against. You're probably betting or raising too many marginal hands. I can bet something like QJ on QT6ss is a nobrainer cbet for you, then u probably bet the turn again and start thinking only on river when your opponent called you twice. Probably u feel very uncomfortable taking any other lines, I remember how it was when I was playing like this.

      2) Your 4bet range is pretty high for 100-200 zoom. Players are tight there, especially when it comes to getting in stacks. If u have some super unbalanced range with many bluffs and it works, it's fine, but if you are 4bet/calling AK MP vs BU, I can guarantee you're losing a lot of money at these stakes.

      3) Your W$SD is worst I've ever seen. This definitely is a consequence of your aggression. You're probably isolating your weak hands against much stronger opponent's range and u simply lose at showdown way too often because of that. In other words - u don't let your opponent showdown worse hand. Everyone will say that betting best hand makes sense, but actually it's like 50% true and only 25% true on the flop :) It's possible you're just making too many bad calls, but I think that's not the biggest problem here.

      4) As Huhtalaj already said - your river call efficiency is kinda low, I would say anything above 1 is fine, but definitely not with this type of play. Your wtsd is also on the lower side, so you're not showdowning too often. Also I guess u have to call a bet on river very rarely because you're the on who bets in most cases and also u don't get to the river too often. And again most likely problem is your aggression. Like in QJ example I mentioned before - you're probably betting twice and then c/calling the river when draws miss. Only problem - u lose every time. I'm not saying that your call is bad, but your entire line is bad. Lets say you check called 2 streets and got to the river in QJ hand. Now it's super easy call because opponents range is at least 2 times weaker than in previous line. Also u will showdown this hand like 5 times more often and win $$ at showdown more often.

      I can only suggest to take more passive approach to the game. Before u bet the flop, think through all streets and if u see some problems on later streets, betting usually isn't the best play.
    • hazeleyes92
      hazeleyes92
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.02.2012 Posts: 642
      Originally posted by getdotacom
      Wow. This is extremely interesting. I've no idea how to get positive redline, but I guess there is no point if it happens like this :)

      1) I think you're extremely aggressive. 4.6 Agg% is super uncommon nowadays. At least in midstakes. Do you ever call ? Your barreling frequencies are pretty high, which comes with aggression obviously, but, tbh, you're my favorite type of player to play against. You're probably betting or raising too many marginal hands. I can bet something like QJ on QT6ss is a nobrainer cbet for you, then u probably bet the turn again and start thinking only on river when your opponent called you twice. Probably u feel very uncomfortable taking any other lines, I remember how it was when I was playing like this.

      2) Your 4bet range is pretty high for 100-200 zoom. Players are tight there, especially when it comes to getting in stacks. If u have some super unbalanced range with many bluffs and it works, it's fine, but if you are 4bet/calling AK MP vs BU, I can guarantee you're losing a lot of money at these stakes.

      3) Your W$SD is worst I've ever seen. This definitely is a consequence of your aggression. You're probably isolating your weak hands against much stronger opponent's range and u simply lose at showdown way too often because of that. In other words - u don't let your opponent showdown worse hand. Everyone will say that betting best hand makes sense, but actually it's like 50% true and only 25% true on the flop :) It's possible you're just making too many bad calls, but I think that's not the biggest problem here.

      4) As Huhtalaj already said - your river call efficiency is kinda low, I would say anything above 1 is fine, but definitely not with this type of play. Your wtsd is also on the lower side, so you're not showdowning too often. Also I guess u have to call a bet on river very rarely because you're the on who bets in most cases and also u don't get to the river too often. And again most likely problem is your aggression. Like in QJ example I mentioned before - you're probably betting twice and then c/calling the river when draws miss. Only problem - u lose every time. I'm not saying that your call is bad, but your entire line is bad. Lets say you check called 2 streets and got to the river in QJ hand. Now it's super easy call because opponents range is at least 2 times weaker than in previous line. Also u will showdown this hand like 5 times more often and win $$ at showdown more often.

      I can only suggest to take more passive approach to the game. Before u bet the flop, think through all streets and if u see some problems on later streets, betting usually isn't the best play.
      1) in case 1, I'll explain my standard line:
      I prefer as a standard line check/call oop hands like QJ/KQ/Qx.
      Bet for value TPTK+ or check/raise set/top2p/nutscombodraw
      Hands like Tx and 6x i prefer double barreling for FE and equity of 5 out to take 2p+
      Hands like KJ-smallFD and AQ-AK-AJ if they have at least one project cbet and re-evaluate turn

      2) I keep appearing in my hud statistics of 3bet for position vs X position..
      Then, if a good reg aggressive 3bet vs utg/middle ip 6%+ i 4bet/broke AKo/QQ+ istant..
      Obv if 3bet 2-3% I think it's possible to fold or flat oop
      Vs huge resteal ip i min4b a lot hands like small Axs and small sc and 22-33 obv JJ+/AKo for induce a light/call oop or a spewy min5b/fold
      for ex: BTN i have A2s raise 2bb and villian 3bet 7bb i do a 4bet 12bb(minisize)
      for this reason maybe my 4bet is high but this is not the problem of my winrate, this strategy I've studied quite well against some regular and seems to be profitable for now

      3) I realize my W$SD is bad, and especially in the last few hands is much worse. Here I have to work well

      4) In this case, maybe it is not the problem of QJ, because in that case i do check / call
      but, i think, the problem is with Tx o 6x because after i fired two street, if oppo bets after my check, in a river with a lot of busted draw, I'm tempted to check / call because strong hands in such cases often raises before for protection and on the river i think is in busted or its' thin valuebetting..
      But perhaps wrong to do so because they often know that I have a weak range and do a thinvaluebet more often with TP+?

      It 'a question I ask myself and I ask you
    • SariyskiS
      SariyskiS
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.10.2011 Posts: 1,706
      Betting twice with Tx and 6x doesn't sound like a great plan and the same goes for check/raising top two pairs and sets unless you know how your opponent constructs his postflop ranges against you.

      I see you added some stuff down your initial comment, so I'll add a few more thoughts on that as well.

      If opponent's range is wide enough for us to consider a 4bet, I'd start off by calling with A2s instead of small4betting it. Not 4betbluffing small pocket pairs as they lack blocker effect and start 4betbluffing stuff like A9o, A8o, A7o, KTo. It's quite optimistic to small4bet A2s for value and calldown on Axx.

      When it comes to Tx hands, it's likely a good idea not to be cbetting them to begin with. Your average opponent will hold more Qx combinations in his range than draws, especially if you're betting stuff like JT and KT.

      Seems like your problem comes from a poor range construction.
    • hazeleyes92
      hazeleyes92
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.02.2012 Posts: 642
      Originally posted by SariyskiS
      Betting twice with Tx and 6x doesn't sound like a great plan and the same goes for check/raising top two pairs and sets unless you know how your opponent constructs his postflop ranges against you.

      I see you added some stuff down your initial comment, so I'll add a few more thoughts on that as well.

      If opponent's range is wide enough for us to consider a 4bet, I'd start off by calling with A2s instead of small4betting it. Not 4betbluffing small pocket pairs as they lack blocker effect and start 4betbluffing stuff like A9o, A8o, A7o, KTo. It's quite optimistic to small4bet A2s for value and calldown on Axx.

      When it comes to Tx hands, it's likely a good idea not to be cbetting them to begin with. Your average opponent will hold more Qx combinations in his range than draws, especially if you're betting stuff like JT and KT.

      Seems like your problem comes from a poor range construction.
      I put it as a standard strategy to provide general ideas..

      For ex:
      If i open from UTG with a raise first of 14/15 and flat btn, I represent a range strongest then I might as well shoot the third bet bluff with Tx-6x..
      Or If i open 30% from cutoff vs BTN I might add combinations of Tx to my check/calling range re-evaluating alternatives line against aggressive players as check/call check/call check/push..

      if I open from the middle and called the cutoff, ok, should probably check/fold 6x or Tx or at most check/call or check/raise as a bluff for only one street..

      As for my strategy on the button against resteal/broke light It's a gameplan that I am trying with, for now, good results and then again, It's not the problem here
    • getdotacom
      getdotacom
      Black
      Joined: 06.04.2008 Posts: 607
      In this case, maybe it is not the problem of QJ, because in that case i do check / call but, i think, the problem is with Tx o 6x because after i fired two street, if oppo bets after my check, in a river with a lot of busted draw, I'm tempted to check / call because strong hands in such cases often raises before for protection and on the river i think is in busted or its' thin valuebetting.. But perhaps wrong to do so because they often know that I have a weak range and do a thinvaluebet more often with TP+?


      You probably shouldn't call too many rivers here. I don't like your line with double barreling second pair, but probably you should bet the river even more often and never play c/c there. If you can bet the river with 70% frequency, you don't have to defend any checks in theory. I think u can get away with this in nl100-200, I really doubt players will start raising TPTK on the river when draws miss. ofc this could turn out even worse in the end, but u can give it a try :)

      If u still like your current strategy, u probably should check some nutted hands and start ch/shoving some bluffs as well, otherwise your ranged is super capped and faced up. Usually I'd say that's not big deal, but in this case it is. Our opponent's range isn't very polarized and he can easily pot TP no kicker when we check.
    • Yonose
      Yonose
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.12.2012 Posts: 167
      +1
    • oblioo
      oblioo
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 02.10.2012 Posts: 338
      Originally posted by HuhtalaJ
      I noticed that your river call efficiency is only 1.1. That in addition to skyrocketing red line and plummeting blue line could possibly indicate that you take way too many (weak) hands to showdown especially by calling on the river. Perhaps you bluff catch too much?
      This. HUGE leak in your case. Fold more on the river and things will change.
    • Kruppe
      Kruppe
      Black
      Joined: 20.02.2008 Posts: 2,145
      turn f2cbet% is nice imo
    • sirrybob
      sirrybob
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 15.01.2012 Posts: 44
      Just fold more, and play your hand more.
      So - first adjustment you should make is folding much more often on the turn.
      Second adjustment is folding more when people raise you.

      I could go more in depth but it would be better to see you play a bit, but generally it's quite clear that you are fighting too hard for pots and not folding enough, so start taking all the borderline calls/bluffs in your range, cut them out, and rinse and repeat until you start winning bcz you are just doing that stuff too much - 53.5% wwsf means you are winning too many pots and this makes you very easy to play against - all someone needs to do to crush you is fold weak hands on the flop and valuebet thinly/not fold everything else.