Run it twice

    • SpecialEdd
      SpecialEdd
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.12.2009 Posts: 84
      Hi,
      doe's anyone use run it twice option on regular tables? I'm playing NL25 regular and this option always on at my tables. Even at such low limits, sometimes it saves big losses.
      Is it +EV to use this option?
      thanks.
  • 17 replies
    • Rihard4a
      Rihard4a
      Gold
      Joined: 08.09.2010 Posts: 2,038
      It is not +EV option because by running it twice you give away part of your edge that dominates others. It will have impact on short term results, if you want to have edge long term simply don't use it.

      And as you say. it save sometimes big losses, now imagine you are 95% favorite to win a hand, you run it twice - 1st run you win, 2nd run oh no, villain spikes his one outer. Was it worth it?
    • Shevtshenko
      Shevtshenko
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.12.2009 Posts: 4,087
      It doesn't affect the ev of the hand. So it's not exactly +ev but also it isn't -ev. Running it twice decreases your variance in all-in situations but doesn't affect the ev of the hand at all. Imo, it rarely makes sense to NOT use it.
    • CreamyGoodness
      CreamyGoodness
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.10.2010 Posts: 229
      Say we get in it all in on flop with a draw vs villains set and he fills up on the turn, and we then hit the river. Isn't that one less card to help us on the next run?

      I realize this is only a very slight impact, and doesn't effect our initial decision. I think if we are comfortably rolled then we probably don't need to run it more than once. Personal preference I suppose.
    • Shevtshenko
      Shevtshenko
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.12.2009 Posts: 4,087
      Originally posted by CreamyGoodness
      Say we get in it all in on flop with a draw vs villains set and he fills up on the turn, and we then hit the river. Isn't that one less card to help us on the next run?

      I realize this is only a very slight impact, and doesn't effect our initial decision. I think if we are comfortably rolled then we probably don't need to run it more than once. Personal preference I suppose.
      Him filling up on turn also takes one out from him...
    • fred7790
      fred7790
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.04.2013 Posts: 246
      Originally posted by Rihard4a
      It is not +EV option because by running it twice you give away part of your edge that dominates others. It will have impact on short term results, if you want to have edge long term simply don't use it.

      And as you say. it save sometimes big losses, now imagine you are 95% favorite to win a hand, you run it twice - 1st run you win, 2nd run oh no, villain spikes his one outer. Was it worth it?
      you sir made my day
    • booomm
      booomm
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.03.2011 Posts: 677
      Originally posted by Rihard4a
      It is not +EV option because by running it twice you give away part of your edge that dominates others. It will have impact on short term results, if you want to have edge long term simply don't use it.

      And as you say. it save sometimes big losses, now imagine you are 95% favorite to win a hand, you run it twice - 1st run you win, 2nd run oh no, villain spikes his one outer. Was it worth it?
      Please stop trolling and spouting nonsense, we already explained this to you a million times on this thread, stop misleading people.
    • tommygecko
      tommygecko
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.08.2012 Posts: 1,229
      One reason to turn run it twice off is when you like to play with a deep stack (running it twice there's a higher chance of not doubling). If you suck deep I don't think there's a reason to turn it off imho.
    • ursusmm
      ursusmm
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.08.2008 Posts: 5,870
      Running it twice also takes some more time so turning it off generates more hands/hour and a better hourly.
    • Rihard4a
      Rihard4a
      Gold
      Joined: 08.09.2010 Posts: 2,038
      Originally posted by booomm
      Originally posted by Rihard4a
      It is not +EV option because by running it twice you give away part of your edge that dominates others. It will have impact on short term results, if you want to have edge long term simply don't use it.

      And as you say. it save sometimes big losses, now imagine you are 95% favorite to win a hand, you run it twice - 1st run you win, 2nd run oh no, villain spikes his one outer. Was it worth it?
      Please stop trolling and spouting nonsense, we already explained this to you a million times on this thread, stop misleading people.
      At least my opinion is supported by some well-known figures.
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,901
      It appears that some people like it, some people don't.

      I would suggest though, that RIT is not a good idea if the rake cap is greater than the blinds.

      Or is that just another distraction from the real issue.

      In a high-stakes cash game, RIT might serve to keep a fish at the table longer, but giving him a chance to get half his stack back. The assumption is that you'll get the rest sooner or later anyway.

      At zoom tables, though, you may never see him again.

      On the other hand, if the statement is true that "RIT reduces your edge against weaker players", then it must also be true that "RIT reduces villains edge vs you when you are the weaker player"

      Certainly an interesting discussion -- both sides have their supporters, and there does not seem to be a consensus.

      Is there a mathematician in da house?
      Can it be shown to be +EV long term one way or the other?

      If not, just go with what you like best.

      Cheers,
      --VS
    • acerbikas
      acerbikas
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.01.2011 Posts: 229
      If it were omaha, I'd say RIT all the way. Your edge reverts to 60/40 too much of a time (or 40/60) to make it a hassle (unless you run just perfect).
    • LemOn36
      LemOn36
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 07.02.2009 Posts: 1,348
      run it twice doesn't affect rake at stars.
      Only reason for a winning player not to use it is if you deal with suck outs better than your opponents and will tilt less than them on average. If bad beads affect you the same or more what rit does is brings you closer to your true winrate faster
    • Ganimator
      Ganimator
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.02.2013 Posts: 189
      RIT does not affect the EV of the hand at all. IMO if you have a good mental game and are playing normal tables it is better to turn it off. Since if you suck out on someone they might get tilted which is an advantage for you.

      If you are playing zoom however i would always have RIT on since even if you suck out on someone , you may not see them for awhile . Therefore even if they tilt , it will be most likely not be to your advantage.

      Pleno1 also mentioned if you like playing deep it is better to turn it off since you can potentially double up quicker.
    • booomm
      booomm
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.03.2011 Posts: 677
      Originally posted by VorpalF2F

      Is there a mathematician in da house?
      Can it be shown to be +EV long term one way or the other?

      If not, just go with what you like best.

      Cheers,
      --VS
      you don't need to be a mathematician to get a grasp of it, running it twice or running the whole the deck over an infinite sample is the same thing.
    • sirilidion
      sirilidion
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.04.2008 Posts: 1,575
      Originally posted by booomm
      Originally posted by VorpalF2F

      Is there a mathematician in da house?
      Can it be shown to be +EV long term one way or the other?

      If not, just go with what you like best.

      Cheers,
      --VS
      you don't need to be a mathematician to get a grasp of it, running it twice or running the whole the deck over an infinite sample is the same thing.
      I don't know how they do it at pokerstars, but is live games the cards aren't shoved back in to the deck the first time it is run. So don't you have to take into account this card removal of the first run in to the calculation?
    • fred7790
      fred7790
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      Joined: 22.04.2013 Posts: 246
      I don't know what you mean by "take into account", but it doesn't influence EV
    • booomm
      booomm
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      Joined: 22.03.2011 Posts: 677
      Originally posted by sirilidion
      Originally posted by booomm
      Originally posted by VorpalF2F

      Is there a mathematician in da house?
      Can it be shown to be +EV long term one way or the other?

      If not, just go with what you like best.

      Cheers,
      --VS
      you don't need to be a mathematician to get a grasp of it, running it twice or running the whole the deck over an infinite sample is the same thing.
      I don't know how they do it at pokerstars, but is live games the cards aren't shoved back in to the deck the first time it is run. So don't you have to take into account this card removal of the first run in to the calculation?
      yeah same thing in pokerstars and full tilt too. but that's irrelevant, it won't affect EV.