prefop bluffing frequency

    • norab
      norab
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.01.2013 Posts: 9
      I would like to know the answer to a very basic question. Ill make the question specific so the answer can be as well. Givens: (1) small blind 1, big blind 2 (2) good opponents (3) I have already chosen to open raise 25% of hands. My question is : what should the ratio of value hands to bluffs be? ( the composition of the bluffing range is assumed to be already chosen), are the bluffs additional to or included in the 25%, and exactly how is this ratio determined? - Perhaps it would best if the preliminary question could be answered first ; Givens: (1) and (2) the same, (3) have chosen to open raise 50% of hands (4) headsup situation The question is the same except for 50% range instead of 25%. I thank the answerer in advance.
  • 7 replies
    • TJtheTJ
      TJtheTJ
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.10.2011 Posts: 6,469
      Hey norab,

      There's not really a specific bluff to value ratio you could or should have. If you are dead set on opening a 25% range, then your range could look something like this:

      22+, A2s+, K9s+, Q9s+, J8s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, 54s, ATo+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo, T9o

      Which hands of these do you raise for value? Which ones are bluffs? This depends a lot on your opponent's calling range. And that's also why you shouldn't have a set opening range, but should rather have a different opening range in every situation.

      For example if you're on the button and have two players behind you who fold 95% to steals (will happen very rarely, but it's just an example), you can easily open any two. But if they continue with only a 5% range, so something like this:

      99+, AQs+, AQo+

      Then you have a very small value:bluff ratio, because the only hands you raise for value, are the hands that beat a 5% range. All the other hands are effectively bluffs in a sense.

      If instead you have two opponents behind you that very rarely fold their blinds, then you should of course tighten up your opening range. In that case your value:bluff ratio will be much higher, because your opponent has a much looser range.

      Long story short: there is no set value:bluff ratio you should have. It always depends on your opponents.

      If you have absolutely no information on your opponents, then you won't know yet which hands will be for value and which hands will be more of a bluff (except the usual things like AA, which is obviously for value).

      Hope that helps!

      Kind regards,
      Tino
    • Benm473
      Benm473
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.08.2011 Posts: 85
      I think the best thing and this advice I don't take myself and why my game still sucks is to use your HUD and equilab and create a decent game plan vs different types opponents for the blinds.

      If you put into equilab what their range is you could work out on which boards they are likely not to have hit/give you a lot of credit on and even get rough percentage of how often you think they will see the turn and what parts of their range not fold the flop eg AA is not folding to a c-bet. You would need to work out how many combos of the hands in their range they could have and this would give you a great idea of what range of hands in most likely i,e are they are more likely to have JT than a big overpair?

      Once you know this and say the board is 678 dry and you know that 89% of their range is JT JQ A10 etc you are pretty likely to get a fold on the flop from the nittier characters on the flop. VS more tricky opponents who think you would rep this board a lot and know that due to your range being wide they might float with more of these hands.

      You need to work out whether they willl fold enough of their range on the flop to justify the cost of the C-bet but I think within this its worth having a plan of the best boards to rep on as its no good saying they fold x percent of the time when actually on a flop that contains an ace they fold a considerably less often (aka a nit has a lot of high cards in their range)
    • norab
      norab
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.01.2013 Posts: 9
      These are excellent replies and I appreciate the advice and knowledge. Perhaps I should have clearer in my question. Anyhow, this is the motivation for the question : normally I play a strictly value based game at low stakes where this general strategy is actually profitable, but occasionally a certain situation will arise which I should run from but often dont, and inevitably end up spewing quickly all the profit that took much longer to acquire ; a really good player enters the game and chases off all the other fish ( or, some other players stay but I chose to play hands with the good player). I asked my question exactly as I framed it seeking a way, not to win in this situation, but to not lose ( at least not lose too much, since he is afterall a very good player with no obvious weaknesses). The strictly value game I play utilizes few bluffs (except where someone has obviously given up , and a few preselected hands and situations ) and little bluffcatching ( except for obvious bad bluffs and against players who are transparent pathological bluffers)
    • patszerdonk
      patszerdonk
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.05.2011 Posts: 834
      Originally posted by norab
      These are excellent replies and I appreciate the advice and knowledge. Perhaps I should have clearer in my question. Anyhow, this is the motivation for the question : normally I play a strictly value based game at low stakes where this general strategy is actually profitable, but occasionally a certain situation will arise which I should run from but often dont, and inevitably end up spewing quickly all the profit that took much longer to acquire ; a really good player enters the game and chases off all the other fish ( or, some other players stay but I chose to play hands with the good player). I asked my question exactly as I framed it seeking a way, not to win in this situation, but to not lose ( at least not lose too much, since he is afterall a very good player with no obvious weaknesses). The strictly value game I play utilizes few bluffs (except where someone has obviously given up , and a few preselected hands and situations ) and little bluffcatching ( except for obvious bad bluffs and against players who are transparent pathological bluffers)
      basically you asked how to play poker. So the aswer: read all videos and articles :)

      Give more specific hands, read on players on the table, limit, etc.
    • Benm473
      Benm473
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.08.2011 Posts: 85
      The gameplan idea will exploit any weaknesses there may be in an opponents game and you can use your holdem database to establish where these might be it does involve having a decent number of hands on the villain to do this.

      I think you want to know the game theory optimal approach to this scenario so it would probably be one of the coaches who would answer these questions but I think that they would say up to 200nl you want to play an exploitative strategy they would probably also suggest that if you review your villains behaviour in your database you would find that they certainly do have leaks which with the right exploitative plan you could profit from.
    • kerwinty
      kerwinty
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.04.2012 Posts: 35
      vague question but a good one and very thorough answers. PS might just be alot better than 2+2 where I spend most of my time. hmmm.
    • norab
      norab
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.01.2013 Posts: 9
      Ill try a new tack. Given that most aspiring poker players use a HUD and know the "proper" stats, and that opening ranges by position are pretty well standardized and known, a peculiar thought comes to mind. Instead of opening what could be called a merged depolarized range, starting with highest value hands (AA) and working down thruogh lesser and lesser value untill one has enough ( perhaps adding a few hands with surprise value), perhaps one could utilize the "givens"and open a much more polarized range but achieving the standard opening rate by position. Thereby, one has essentially the same stealing capacity (pre and post flop), but one also has a range much richer in high value hands than would be expected , simplifying the response to 3bets. A key element of such an opening strategy would be the proper ratio of value to bluff (trash with some good features such as blockers).