Working on Push/Fold Charts

    • Ramble
      Ramble
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.11.2008 Posts: 1,421
      I was curious about how the SnG Push/Fold charts were developed, and how I could possibly use ICMizer to complete them...

      For instance the "Push-Chart for When You are First In" only covers about 35% of hands. As an example, a hand like K9o is not covered, but I am sure that it must qualify for a push from the small blind for some number of blinds...

      I understand that the Push/Fold Charts are general (and conservative) guidelines only and so much depends on the table - # of players, their tendencies, stack sizes, etc...

      I've been playing around in ICMizer with different scenarios and using Nash to come up with some charts but am finding my results tend to be much looser than the charts provided, especially from early position.

      Has anyone else gone down this road or have any suggestions?
  • 7 replies
    • kurrkabin
      kurrkabin
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.10.2010 Posts: 5,976
      Hi, Ramble!

      Did you check our new pushing ranges posted in the forum a few days ago?

      When we are in an early position for, say, 10-12bb and there are 7 players left to act. I will definitely not play nash. Players are not gonna call nash for one thing, so we need to re-adjust and play exploitable strategy.

      My range in spots like this will be definitely tighter than nash(ppl will call looser, so we can't really push profitably 33 into 7 ppl for 11bb or KQ, JTs-what nash suggests).

      I just checked the graphs and to be honest, I think they are a really good guideline. Ofc, push/fold-call depends on many factors, but all in all, they give you a very good idea of what ranges to play pre-bubble game when risk aversion doesn't influence our decision too much.

      Please, post graphs here with the specific spots that catch your attention and we can go into further analysis :) ))
    • Ramble
      Ramble
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.11.2008 Posts: 1,421
      Originally posted by kurrkabin
      Hi, Ramble!

      Did you check our new pushing ranges posted in the forum a few days ago?
      Thanks Kurrkabin. Did you mean the Silver Status Charts in the Strategy section? (I'm only bronze since FTP isn't tracked anymore). I looked but couldn't find any new charts in a forum thread... maybe I am not looking in the right place.

      When I was using ICMizer I was putting myself vs random stacks and then calculating Nash ranges. Then to be conservative I was using a EV Diff% of 0.2 to tighten up the ranges a bit... Does a static 0.2 make sense, or would it make more sense for it to be higher in earlier positions and lower in the SB for example?

      (note the screen capture was just something quick I did to illustrate where I was adjusting the EV Diff%)



      So in my chart I would only put the dark green hands, and not the lighter hands...

      My main concern is that the chart does not have hands like K9o and I want to see how those should be played as well...
    • kurrkabin
      kurrkabin
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.10.2010 Posts: 5,976
      Yes, I refer to the one in the silver section :( ((

      Hopefully you get tracked with us playing from another room or get a subscription.

      As for the graph:

      First thing is that the only hands I will be pushing this deep is prolly small pairs 22-55. Anyway, you gave yourself an edge of 0.2 which means basically that you believe you are better than the competition(e.g. soft table, loose fishes or whatever), so the software advices you to fold the marginally plus EV hands and play only those who are worth risking 15bb considering the edge you have.

      Mainly, though, don't just play push/fold 15bb on the BTN. There are so many things you can do:

      -vs loose 3betters you can r/c lighter-like 44/55, A8o f.e. or you can limp on the BTN with a hand like JTs as it's not strong enough to r/c, but you don't wanna r/f it and you certainly wanna play i t:)

      Vs tight players, you can open a wide range and fold everything but the top of it as there are gonna be playing back only with good hands(by 3bet shoving).
    • Ramble
      Ramble
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.11.2008 Posts: 1,421
      Thanks again Kurrkabin.

      A couple of things though:
      1) I just generated that screen capture from a random hand in my history to show you what field I was adjusting (i.e. the circled part) - ignore the stacks and ranges and all that, this is not what I was using for my table...

      2) If I put a value of 0.2 in the min EV Diff % field, it removes all the hands where the EVPush-EVFold is less than 0.2. What I don't understand is why removing marginally positive hands from my range implies that "I think" I am better than my competition. In my mind, it is the exact opposite... I am removing the marginal hands and only leaving the stronger hands because I think I need the better cards to win. Put another way, I have doubts about my ability to properly estimate my opponents ranges, so I tighten my ranges up by removing the marginal hands from my range. I conserve my chips where I don't have a clear shove.

      Just to be clear - I don't think what you are saying is wrong at all. In fact, I've read similar comments many times elsewhere, but I never understood how removing cards from my range implies that I think I am better than my opponents. Maybe you could finally make me understand that concept? Please... :f_thumbsup:


      As for the Push/Fold charts in the strategy section - I agree that they are pretty good. I analyzed over a hundred different spots today in ICMizer and the charts reflected the ranges indicated fairly closely - the charts being a bit more conservative (i.e. they had marginal hands removed from the lower end of the range ;) )
    • kurrkabin
      kurrkabin
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.10.2010 Posts: 5,976
      Hi, Ramble!

      Slight mistake from my part-like u said-it removes all the hands that have EV push-EVfold difference of less than + 0.2. Essentially, when you set yourself an edge(say on a program like SnGWiz) it does the same thing-removes the more marginal push/folds. Nash suggest pushing everything that is + 0.01 EV better than folding.

      I will try to make it clear this time, hopefully you understand it.

      Say you are on a tough table. Everybody is a reg. You don't think you have any edge on these guys-they are as good as you are postflop and will push/call the perfect nash ranges. No spews from their part is likely. So then every little edge that you have and it is still plus EV, you are happy to take and hope that's gonna make the difference later in the game(if you double up, you can abuse them on the bubble etc). Sometimes you might even make slightly minus EV jam for future benefits(not lose FE, or get the chiplead so that next 10 hands you can abuse the bubble-etc.)

      On the other hand, you have a fishy table with spewy fish that are unaware of ICM concepts. They are likely to spew equity away which only the remaining players benefit from. So this is where I am gonna fold all these very marginal pushes. To fold everything from 0.01 to 0.2 is too much though! Lets look at your chart(I understand now u picked it up randomly)-u see A5o, A8o and K4s, QTo, JTo being very marginally plus EV and therefore-I will prefer having them played in another fashion that pushing on this table. I think I can pick up better spots to have a greater edge than taking a close to BE spot. Hands like A2s that is + 0.1 though I believe is way too strong to pass, same with KTs, K9s. I can't really set exact numbers and tell u-ok, so here u fold everything up to + 0.05 and push the rest. I am telling you what I do and how I treat this spots from my experience :)

      Cheers!
    • Ramble
      Ramble
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.11.2008 Posts: 1,421
      Originally posted by kurrkabin
      I will try to make it clear this time, hopefully you understand it.
      Great explanation - I think I finally get it now.

      Versus good opponents, giving up those small +EV hands is actually hurting me because I need all the good spots I can get.

      Versus bad opponents, I can give up the very marginal hands because they are likely to offer me more opportunities to get it in against them when I have a higher +EV hand.

      I really appreciate you taking the time to help me out with this, it's been confusing me for a long time.


      As for being tracked through another Poker room - I think I might take advantage of Poker770 Cash Machine later this month and start playing there to upgrade my status. That is, if Canadians are still allowed to play online poker and do online transactions for much longer... :facepalm:

      Thanks again!
    • kurrkabin
      kurrkabin
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.10.2010 Posts: 5,976
      Originally posted by Ramble

      Great explanation - I think I finally get it now.

      Versus good opponents, giving up those small +EV hands is actually hurting me because I need all the good spots I can get.

      Versus bad opponents, I can give up the very marginal hands because they are likely to offer me more opportunities to get it in against them when I have a higher +EV hand.

      I really appreciate you taking the time to help me out with this, it's been confusing me for a long time.


      As for being tracked through another Poker room - I think I might take advantage of Poker770 Cash Machine later this month and start playing there to upgrade my status. That is, if Canadians are still allowed to play online poker and do online transactions for much longer... :facepalm:

      Thanks again!
      Yes, very good understanding! No worries, glad I helped you!

      Hopefully, you can can a good tracked room and enjoy online poker. Good luck with the legal restrictions, in my home country we also have this as an issue for most rooms(basically you can just play on pokerstars/ftp), so I understand your concerns :)