BRM on 8-game

    • HitThe1Out
      HitThe1Out
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      Joined: 07.01.2011 Posts: 5,059
      Hey!

      I play 8-game from time to time even though my main game is nl. I haven't never really thought of any brm involved that game because I play so much lower stakes on 8-game than in nl.

      However, I was thinking that if I ever try to play 8-g more serious, I must have a proper brm, but I don't have any clue what it could be.

      I have no idea of my winr's, but I think I'll have pretty good edge at least to the midstakes on nlhe, flhe and 2-7td and I think I won't be losing (at least much :D ) either in plo, flo8 or razz. Stud hi and hilo are the games I'm leaking atm, but don't think that much.

      My playing style doesn't involve a huge variance in plo.

      What is the proper brm to 8-g, if there's not after all that much plo or other high-variance games in the game? If someone could give me like 3 different options between safe/normal/aggressive I'd be very grateful. :)

      -hit

      e. headline
  • 11 replies
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
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      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,901
      Since 8-game involves PLO, which is the cycle with the most variance, if you judge your BRM by that cycle, would that not work?

      The limit sections would not eat up a lot of money, only the NLHE and the PLO

      What BRM are you comfortable playing those with?

      Just some random thoughts -- I don't have anything that would qualify as an "answer"

      Best of luck,
      --VS
    • HitThe1Out
      HitThe1Out
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      Joined: 07.01.2011 Posts: 5,059
      At this point of practicing I'm pretty happy with aggressive brm because of the relatively low stakes. I thought about the plo-brm view, but as plo is only 1/8 of the whole 8-g cycle, does the brm need to be the same as it would be in "normal" plo?
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
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      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,901
      Originally posted by HitThe1Out
      but as plo is only 1/8 of the whole 8-g cycle, does the brm need to be the same as it would be in "normal" plo?
      Although the PLO + NLHE make up 1/4 the hands, I'm going to guess and say that they make up the most of the money that changes hands

      I have only played the 8-game freerolls on PokerStars, and that is what I see.

      The two stud rounds and the Razz have relatively few hands for the time they take, and since they are limit games it is hard to lose a lot.

      We're talking about cash games, aren't we?
      I would be interesting to average the pot sizes for the 8 rounds over the course of a session.

      Cheers,
      --VS
    • HitThe1Out
      HitThe1Out
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      Joined: 07.01.2011 Posts: 5,059
      Yes we're talking about cash games :)

      Although I think the variance in nl is relatively pretty low for me as my main game is nl and the edge has been so far pretty crushing in the 8-g. That's the reason I mainly think that plo is the key to this brm problem.
    • tonypmm
      tonypmm
      Silver
      Joined: 11.01.2009 Posts: 3,853
      Alas the PLO round drags the variance up so much. From the variance and winrate viewpoint, I'd suggest making the PLO big blind equal to 1/8 of the big bet, the NLHE one (and possibly a new NLO/8 round) equal to 1/4 of the big bet and the buy-in range of 10-25 big bets, so 40-100 NLHE bb and 80-200 PLO bb, which suits the postflop nature of PLO better. This would allow recreationals to survive past the PLO round.

      But maybe Stars don't want to implement it because it's hard to make everyone post the same amount in blinds when they're so different in different games and people join and leave all the time. What do you think about this change?

      As is, the total variance is about (1 + 1/4 [from NLHE] + <a tiny bit from FL rounds>) / 8 ~ 0.16 of the variance of the PLO round alone (if it was played all the time instead of 1/8 of the time), so the former's standard deviation (the sq. root of the variance) is 0.4 of the latter's. So $4/$8 8-g, with 1/2 PLO, is roughly equivalent to $0.4/$0.8 PLO, and requires at least twice as stricter BRM as the FL games comprising it. An aggro / normal / tight BR size for $4/$8 8-g is therefore about 400 / 700 / 1200 big bets imo ($3200 / $5600 / $9600), maybe less if most 8-g players suck at PLO big time.

      A related question I've had for long is how ethical it is to sit in for the PLO (maybe NLHE too) round only and then quit for another 36-42 hands while grinding usual PLO on the side :f_grin: PLO seems the biggest part of the mix winrate-wise as well... or is 8-g infested by PLO regs already?
    • jbpatzer
      jbpatzer
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      Joined: 22.11.2009 Posts: 6,944
      You can estimate the BR you need if you know what BR you'd use for NLHE and know your winrate and the variance for each of the other games relative to NLHE. Here's my guesstimate based on what you wrote.

      Format is game winrate variance, all relative to NLHE.

      NLHE 1 1
      FLHE 1 2
      27TD 1 2
      PLO 0 4
      FLO8 0 0.5
      Razz 0 0.5
      Stud -0.25 1
      S8 -0.25 0.5

      Adding the winrates and dividing by 8 gives 5/16, and for the variances, 23/16.

      If you would use aggro 25 BI BRM for NLHE = 1250BB, you need 23/5*1250=5750BB. I expect that's wrong because I estimated the variances of the games wrong, but if you play with the numbers, you at least have a rational way of deciding what to do.
    • tonypmm
      tonypmm
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      Joined: 11.01.2009 Posts: 3,853
      I think we should add up post-reward winrates for BRM purposes, especially because rake is so different in different games (PLO rake is too damn high :facepalm: ). Given OP's NLHE competence, it's hard to be losing or breaking even overall after using FPPs as a SN (or, much better, a SNE). So the bankroll can be lower if OP has some clue in PLO (though wouldn't grind it full-time); otherwise, it's just not worth it to play 8-g: as I said, because of the poorly balanced blind structure, the bulk of the winrate should come from the PLO round.
    • badgerer
      badgerer
      Silver
      Joined: 29.03.2010 Posts: 555
      Originally posted by tonypmm
      A related question I've had for long is how ethical it is to sit in for the PLO (maybe NLHE too) round only and then quit for another 36-42 hands while grinding usual PLO on the side
      in my opinion its definitely not ok to do this. its against the rules anyway so its a moot point.
    • HitThe1Out
      HitThe1Out
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.01.2011 Posts: 5,059
      Thanks for answers so far!

      I think it's unethical too to sit out some games. After all, the point of the 8game for me is to play games I don't play as well as others and play vs people who doesn't play every game as well as other games.

      So if we want to make some conclusion, what brm should I choose for

      1) 1/2 8g
      2) 2/4 8g
      3) 4/8 8g

      The brm should be somewhere between standard and aggressive.
    • badgerer
      badgerer
      Silver
      Joined: 29.03.2010 Posts: 555
      you mighy already know this but i'll post anyway... i googled "8game bankroll" and found a post by rusty brooks on a rival site. its probably not exactly what you're looking for as he is a limit player but its something at least. its the top result.

      i dont play regularly myself so i dont worry too much about BRM. i just take the occasional shot when the games look good. for me 200BB is ok if i am very careful in pl/nl. but i do buy in short and focus on limit games like rusty.

      imo you should work on stud8 if you dont feel like you have an edge. a lot of players butcher this round.
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
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      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,901
      Originally posted by badgerer

      imo you should work on stud8 if you dont feel like you have an edge. a lot of players butcher this round.
      Yeah, that and the RAZZ round.

      Cheers,
      --VS