-$800 total, bye poker.

    • Semesa
      Semesa
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.06.2008 Posts: 294
      started with $10 in june that i deposited myself due to problems with sending in my ID(eventually resolved) and about a week later i was up $120 or so by coming 2nd in the weekly depositors freerolls.
      read up the articles, became a fairly proficient SSS'er at NL20.

      eventually moved up to NL50 with $325 BR, within 6 hours i was down to $120
      won another tournament, BR went up to $400
      played NL20 to get the feel of it again, watched many many coaching videos, attended a few SSS coachings, and even got help off some forum members.

      BR went up to $420 from NL20 at my average 4-8BB/100 hands while i was getting used to SSS and rebuilding my confidence etc.
      i get stuck into NL50 again, down to $140 in a few hours with a win rate of -260bb/100 hands.
      i figured i must be doing something wrong, i've played probably 7k hands at NL50 and am losing alot of money.
      i look through my hands and compare them to my NL20 hands, my play style is very similar on both limits, except i stealraise against tight players more often on NL50. i decide to stop stealraising altogether.
      win another tournament, BR is back up to $300
      play with my new style on NL50, go back down to $125 in a couple of hours.

      absolutely sick of cash games, so i decide to give SnG's a go, i have a fairly good grasp of ICM and according to ICM trainer i have gotten 89% correct descisions over 1480 hands(i just kept grinding ICM trainer to make sure i still remembered it properly)
      read and re-read all the articles related to sit n go, attend 2 coachings and watch all the videos i can. by the time i open my first table i am fairly confident i can play a decent sit n go game.

      i start out with my $125 bankroll on $5 games. within 1 night i am up to $330(i play 16 tables at once because i get bored with any less, and i played about 8 hours that night).

      i figure this is about normal, i had around a 10-15% ROI according to pokertracker, and according to sit n go wizard i was making very few mistakes.

      i go to sleep, the next day i wake up and start on $10 SnG's.
      my BR is down to $200 within 15 SnG's... yes, i only made it ITM in 1 of my 15 SnG's played.
      according to sit n go wizard i made 2 mistakes over all 15 games.

      i move back down to $5 as i figure ill get a couple of hundred more games there for experience.
      100 games later im back down to $60.

      i get $140 rakeback, and start at $5 again.

      another 100-150 games later, im back down to $60.

      i get a friend of mine who introduced me to these forums and is a fairly successful sit n go player, as well as a platnium member, to rail me on teamviewer and skype while i played a set of $2 sit n goes.
      after about 10 games he told me about certain raises i shoulda been making pre-ICM stage, and advised me to play a little looser pre-icm(i fold AJ from early/mid and fold AQ to any raise, i raise TT+ AK only, and AQ from SB) but also said that it shouldnt matter too much.
      i decide to start playing $2 Sit N goes, and play complete ABC poker. down to $30 BR within 50 games.

      I look through my games in Sit N go wizard, and find i've made 15 mistakes in all 50 games, thats a >90% ICM correct game.

      i figure its just luck(which it is, most times i was pushing with the best/dominating hand and they were sucking out literally every time)


      I move down to $1 Sit N Go's, finally start making something, after 40 games im up $4. I compare my game in the $1 SnG's to my game in the $2 SnG's and find almost no difference. im shoving with the same range, and calling with the same range. im playing a 90% correct ICM game.


      I play another 100 or so $1 SnG's, now im down to $10. thats the exact amount i started with almost 4 months ago.

      i've decided to stop playing poker, i've probably put about 30-40 hours of work into it merely grinding nl10/nl20/$1/$2 SnG's and moving up the limits(i used to play 2-4 tables of $2 SnG's when i finally got my $2 on full tilt)

      now im back to $10, i have made exactly no profit, not only that, i've learnt what appears to be a completely useless skill.

      i can play poker in a way that, over an infinite amount of time, will eventually make money.

      pity it doesnt work over such a small sample size of 2000 Sit N Goes and 25k hands on cash games...



      edit: if you want to see something hilarious, check out my sharkscope graph. on IPOKER network, username is semesa
  • 65 replies
    • slikec
      slikec
      Global
      Joined: 04.02.2008 Posts: 1,155
      I am sorry to hear that but man making 100% ICM decisions or 89% ICM decisions is big difference to start with. I make 90% ICM decisions and thats just not good enought lol. I played 1k 1$ SNGs to try that out and was break even so you should first learn to make 100% ICM decision i am sure that alone would boost you ROI% for 5% up.

      I mean is bad and sad but your ROI% is bad:
      -2% at 1$
      -17%!!!! at 2$
      -9% at 5$
      -14% at 10$!

      I mean just calculate a bit. -17% ROI at 2$ with 0,4$ rake makes you lose 0,24$ because of rake(0,16$ you get rake back) +0,34$ with that ROI =0,58$!!!

      That means losing 0,58$ for every 2$SNG you enter!!!!


      I mean you just thought you are god or what playing 16 SNGs at times since you make enought of good decisions(as you think). Well let me tell you sth. I make same mistake- I AM ALSO LAZY AT LEARNING!!! But still i at least stopped playing more tables that i can handle and is obvious you can not handle 16 tables. I mean you should start with lets say 6 maybe 8 16 is for someone who have at least 10% ROI over 5k sample size i think.


      Good luck in your real life but remember is hard to get far by shortcut. Ofcourse some make it that way to but far less than those that try to improve their knowledge first,

      slikec
    • Semesa
      Semesa
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.06.2008 Posts: 294
      when using ICM trainer i get 89-90%, i mainly have trouble with pushing SB into BB in some instances.

      regardless, most of my games are "perfect" ICM according to SnG wizard. i think the problem with ICM trainer is that it is programmed to display marginal situations...

      also, sharkscope already takes into account rake.

      also, i've tried any combination of tables. tried playing 4 tables at a time to focus on reads etc, i find i play slightly better, but i still lose money(played 40 games over 2 days with this method for a total of -8% ROI which is a small improvement)

      i've spent probably about half the amount of time i've been at the tables again just reading articles/reviewing my game etc etc.(i.e. i've probably played 40 hours poker, 20 hours reading/reviewing/finding out where i went wrong)

      its quite annoying when people tell me im "taking shortcuts." i've never been good at sticking to things, and it took alot of effort to stay at the tables for the amount of time i did whilst not making more mistakes due to fatigue etc.

      as it is, after comparing my session to another user on this forum, i've found we both make about the same amount of mistakes in game, and yet he has a 25% ROI on $5 SnG's over 400 games.


      final edit:
      the amount of insight i gain from playing 4 tables vs 16 tables is so negligible as to not be worth it. for the most part i can remember some necessary reads in all 16 tables at once(at least for the players to me left and right, as well as interesting things like someone shoving twice in a row preflop in 10/20 blinds etc)
    • Grimzor
      Grimzor
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.03.2008 Posts: 421
      You seem to be doing something wrong. Sharkscope graph looks like quite typical loosing player graph. There must be something wrong in your game. I dont know what could it be unfortunatelly. When i played low buyin SNGs i pushed quite loose and often lost because of that - i adjusted my play and started pushing much tighter. That improved my results. I think i was pushing tighter than ICM would suggest but well.. that worked for me.

      And really - if you loose money stop playing on 16 tables. That just makes no sense imo. Focus on less games and try to improve your game. You shouldnt be playing more games just because you can click fast enough. You should play more tables when you see you beat your opponents, which you clearly cant atm.
    • Alafoe
      Alafoe
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.08.2008 Posts: 202
      The problem with coachings is that coaches are not good players themselves. I watch World poker tour and Gus Hansen, Lolina, Phil Ivey, David Benjamine and Patrik Antonius online. And when I compare it with coaches there...

      Other point is you have to read game of your oponents. Sometimes should be worth to go all in with 23s when you have feeling for the game. But when you have some charts and table of correct decisions, you are more readable.

      So its not completely crap, you have to mix it up. You have to develop your own game style which can differ from tables which are predictable. And even myselve dont know if I will not move to 1000/2000 limit poker has no sense to me=) )
    • Semesa
      Semesa
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.06.2008 Posts: 294
      Originally posted by Grimzor
      You seem to be doing something wrong. Sharkscope graph looks like quite typical loosing player graph. There must be something wrong in your game. I dont know what could it be unfortunatelly. When i played low buyin SNGs i pushed quite loose and often lost because of that - i adjusted my play and started pushing much tighter. That improved my results. I think i was pushing tighter than ICM would suggest but well.. that worked for me.

      And really - if you loose money stop playing on 16 tables. That just makes no sense imo. Focus on less games and try to improve your game. You shouldnt be playing more games just because you can click fast enough. You should play more tables when you see you beat your opponents, which you clearly cant atm.
      that depends on the definition of beating your opponent.

      if its "im losing money, therefore im not beating my opponent" then i guess you are right.

      But the way i see it, if i am making +EV decisions through the entire game, then i am beating my opponents. basically, as far as i can tell, its coming down to luck(SnG wizard seems to agree with me there)




      ill give you a few examples... these are the last couple of hands i have shoved in no particular order.(will be typed as i cant seem to access pokertracker at the moment).

      blinds are 50/100

      Hero is on Big Blind with approx 1450 chips
      Villian is on CO with approx 1800 chips

      hero dealt 3 :spade: Q :diamond:
      2 folds, CO limps, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

      flop dealt: Q :spade: J :club: 3 :heart:
      hero bets 300. CO calls, SB folds

      turn dealt: 9 :heart:
      hero bets 1050(all in) villain calls 1050

      river dealt: K :club:
      Villian shows KQ(2 pair)
      hero shows Q2(2 pair)


      Pot sized bet the flop because a) multi way pot, and b) this villain loved to play his suited connectors and any 2 face cards so KT/9T was well within his range(i'd played about 10 games with this guy before that i remember)





      and in a different tournament:

      6max SnG, 5 players left. blinds 100/200

      Hero dealt AQo in CO position.
      1 fold, hero raises to 1650(all in) 1 fold, SB calls 910(all in), 1 fold.

      long story short...

      FLOP: 2 2 2

      TURN: K

      RIVER: J

      villain shows KTo

      2 hands later, and i have 3 BB's left.
      SB has around 1000 in chips and is the next smallest shorty after me

      HERO is on BB with 440(200 in the big blind)

      HERO is dealt QTs

      4 folds, SB completes, Hero pushes all in for 640, SB calls.

      SB has KTs.


      This wouldnt sound so bad, but this is exactly what happens in easily >50% of my tournaments. all of my descisions are +EV, QT was ahead of SB's open complete range(which was around 75%) as he seemed to love to open complete and bet any flop.


      Also, i find that i am only getting slightly better reads on my opponents when i am 4 tabling compared to when i am 16 tabling(note, im usually at around 12-13, i can never seem to get a full 16 up coz Ipoker is very quiet until late at night in australia)
      regardless, im 99% certain that my problem does not lie in the amount of tables i have open.





      EDIT: im sure ive seen a program somewhere that makes a graph of "all in luck." if i can find it, ill post my graph, if it works for tournaments.
    • heartburn13
      heartburn13
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.09.2008 Posts: 37
      ICM is not a holy grail, its a tool to use in your end game. but the start and middle are also important first off deal with all parts of your game not just ICM, which in my opinion is not a perfect science as it takes average folding ranges of your opponents which are just not real, and with sitngo wizard even if you change the ranges you have to know you have them correct for each opponent.
      as much as I think to be at 95%plus ICM accurate to big advantage its still not enough to guarantee success.
      how do i make my comments you ask? Im A LOSING PLAYER AT SITNGOS ICM 95PLUS. so there just has to be more:)
    • Grimzor
      Grimzor
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.03.2008 Posts: 421
      Originally posted by Alafoe
      The problem with coachings is that coaches are not good players themselves. I watch World poker tour and Gus Hansen, Lolina, Phil Ivey, David Benjamine and Patrik Antonius online. And when I compare it with coaches there...

      Other point is you have to read game of your oponents. Sometimes should be worth to go all in with 23s when you have feeling for the game. But when you have some charts and table of correct decisions, you are more readable.

      So its not completely crap, you have to mix it up. You have to develop your own game style which can differ from tables which are predictable. And even myselve dont know if I will not move to 1000/2000 limit poker has no sense to me=) )
      This might be the biggest crap i have ever read... seriously...

      Coaches are winning players, some of them very good players. Yes, they might not be bracelet winners and top pros but they know the game well enough.

      About that watching WPT part i loled... I just watched James Bond movie - it had poker in it. He just beat the crap out of opponents. Played way better than coaches here, think i should learn from him instead.

      Didnt get your last part about that 1k/2k limit part at all. Wanna tell us you play on such limit? i have serious trouble believing it, you are welcome to prove me wrong. Would love that to be true tbh.
    • Alafoe
      Alafoe
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.08.2008 Posts: 202
      In fact I am playing on the 0.05/0.1 LIMIT HOLD EM now =) ) I only wanted to state that my goal is to get to 1000/2000 limit, high buy-in tournaments and maybe after some time high limit NL HOLD EM.

      I only wanted to state that I have to decide between poker and carier líke scientist or programmer and definitely for me would not be goal to beat 20/40 limit hold em even if I am faaaaaaaaar away from that limit already.

      I tried to watch some coachings and when I tried to discuss some hands with coaches, they stated that they thing better is to play according to tables=) ) Than I watched some NL SNGs and I can not believe if the coach is drunk.

      So I am now definitelly low limit player but triing to buid up bankroll at least 1000000 and start real poker... And think in this goal could not help me coaches here so much. I am not discus that they are winning players.

      So for me every piece of poker even in coachings would be great but definitely the reason is to watch average players to play and teach myself how possibly owerplay their game. But I can not overvaluate this.

      In fact I think many pros have reserves in their games and I allways try to spot them.
    • alejandrosh
      alejandrosh
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.07.2008 Posts: 4,346
      Sorry to read this samesa, it's like looking me at a mirror 7 months ago where nothing at all worked, now i think (hope) that i lost 90% of my bankroll because of bad game.

      @Alafoe:

      Originally posted by Alafoe
      The problem with coachings is that coaches are not good players themselves. I watch World poker tour and Gus Hansen, Lolina, Phil Ivey, David Benjamine and Patrik Antonius online. And when I compare it with coaches there...
      patrick antonius, phil ivey , gus hansen don't play low limits sit&go , I see a lot of hansen's wannabe and they are the reason i'm not broke right now.


      Other point is you have to read game of your oponents. Sometimes should be worth to go all in with 23s when you have feeling for the game. But when you have some charts and table of correct decisions, you are more readable.

      lots of people don't know what they're doing at micro limits , ¿how many will know how to read your game? by the way, poker "by feeling" is crap, if you are shoving 23s you need a very specific reason to do so. there will be spots where pushing 23s is +ev but don't push it because you can feel it.


      So its not completely crap, you have to mix it up. You have to develop your own game style which can differ from tables which are predictable. And even myselve dont know if I will not move to 1000/2000 limit poker has no sense to me=) )
      you can mix it up, but not at limit 0.05/0.1 , i think i read tribunceasar saying that mixing it up is a good idea at NL100+

      So I am now definitelly low limit player but triing to buid up bankroll at least 1000000 and start real poker... And think in this goal could not help me coaches here so much. I am not discus that they are winning players.


      interesting , so your goal is to make a huge bankroll playing low limit poker and then going to "real" poker , i think that's not a good idea, making that jump in stakes instead of going through the levels.
    • Grimzor
      Grimzor
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.03.2008 Posts: 421
      k, whatever works for you... good luck! :)
    • n3l1x
      n3l1x
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.02.2008 Posts: 54
      Originally posted by Alafoe
      The problem with coachings is that coaches are not good players themselves. I watch World poker tour and Gus Hansen, Lolina, Phil Ivey, David Benjamine and Patrik Antonius online. And when I compare it with coaches there...

      Other point is you have to read game of your oponents. Sometimes should be worth to go all in with 23s when you have feeling for the game. But when you have some charts and table of correct decisions, you are more readable.

      So its not completely crap, you have to mix it up. You have to develop your own game style which can differ from tables which are predictable. And even myselve dont know if I will not move to 1000/2000 limit poker has no sense to me=) )
      There are coaches on this site are several hundred thousand dollars plus against David Benyamine and co. which does not really mean much though. If you try to compare the play on the high stakes to that of the low stakes you will quickly find yourself going nowhere at all.

      If coaches are telling you to play in a certain way in low limit coachings its because that is the most effective way to play there

      Rise in ranks and listen to some advanced coachings and you will see a whole different world
    • Alafoe
      Alafoe
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.08.2008 Posts: 202

      interesting , so your goal is to make a huge bankroll playing low limit poker and then going to "real" poker , i think that's not a good idea, making that jump in stakes instead of going through the levels.
      Not really. I am going uplimits. Even yesterday I have played 0.02/0.04 and now I am up on 0.05/0.1. I am thinking about upmoving as soon as my bankroll is sufficient. But the problem will starts somewhere about 3/6 limit where is not so much 10 player tables on Titan poker.
    • alejandrosh
      alejandrosh
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.07.2008 Posts: 4,346
      ok, i'm not even thinking about limits as high as 3/6 i think on that high limits you have to play at different sites since the there aren't many tables.
    • xylere
      xylere
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2007 Posts: 2,939
      The problem with coachings is that coaches are not good players themselves. I watch World poker tour and Gus Hansen, Lolina, Phil Ivey, David Benjamine and Patrik Antonius online. And when I compare it with coaches there...


      :D :D +1

      @Semesa

      Slikec actually wrote a good post

      a) 90% in ICM trainer is pretty bad) good result starts from 95%. If you score 95% you can think of having a 0 grade on 0 to 5 scale)

      b) 16 tabling is a bad idea ever. Start with 4 tables max. Even really good sng players don't play 16 tables)) 9 is usually a standard number.

      c) reread articles 20 times, rewatch videos, visit coachings, post hands... learn... a lot of players on this forum played way more hands breakeven then you... and eventually they made it. You are obviously overestimating your skills.

      d) About SNG wizard. I have a feeling that you don't fully understand the nature of ICM. SNG wiz can't tell you your mistakes with default settings. What appears to be a correct push against a tight player, can be totally wrong against a loose one. It all depends on player's ranges, which you have to learn to estimate.

      Find a way to get a starting bankroll and restart, but this time concentrate on learning process, either then playing more hands.

      Good luck
    • CityTrader
      CityTrader
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.08.2008 Posts: 34
      Maybe you should try playing tournaments. If you have any final table success your ROI will be very healthy. You do not need a very high S/R and if you are lucky enough to hit some 1st or 2nd positions you could be moving up the levels at a rapid rate of knots.

      I became a member of Pokerstrategy about 3 months ago. I quickly turned my $50 into $4000 in the space of 5 weeks. This was largely helped by winning a $5 rebuy to the tune of $3900. I decided I would withdraw $3000 and leave myself a $900 bankroll. With this I have won a seat in one of the ECOOPIII finals and trying to win a few more...I DO NOT use any poker software, but I love all the articales and training on Pokerstrategy. I have learnt my own style of play over the last 4 years which has been further developed by this great site.

      In a nutshell my advice is do not give up playing poker but to develop your OWN STYLE. You can have all the statistics in the world but they will NEVER teach you how to be a good, profit making poker player.
    • mbrut
      mbrut
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.03.2007 Posts: 1,830
      u lost 800$ and u want to stop poker. People lose several K in one night.....
    • Grimzor
      Grimzor
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.03.2008 Posts: 421
      Originally posted by mbrut
      u lost 800$ and u want to stop poker. People lose several K in one night.....
      This comment is just idiotic. For some ppl 800$ is a lot of money and on those limits its a lot of buyins.

      mbrut, I guess you are ok with loosing millions of $ in poker, right? People loose that in a week or so on high stakes. It must be ok for you as well according to your logic.
    • mbrut
      mbrut
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.03.2007 Posts: 1,830
      no but 800$ is not really big sum nowdays
    • NickParkes
      NickParkes
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.07.2008 Posts: 1,526
      Originally posted by Semesa
      i start out with my $125 bankroll on $5 games. within 1 night i am up to $330(i play 16 tables at once because i get bored with any less, and i played about 8 hours that night).

      i figure this is about normal, i had around a 10-15% ROI according to pokertracker, and according to sit n go wizard i was making very few mistakes.

      i go to sleep, the next day i wake up and start on $10 SnG's.
      my BR is down to $200 within 15 SnG's... yes, i only made it ITM in 1 of my 15 SnG's played.
      according to sit n go wizard i made 2 mistakes over all 15 games.
      The bankroll management is horrible.

      $5 + 0.50 x 16 games = $88.... started with BR of $125.... that's 2/3rds of BR at the table! 1 bad set and of course it's wiped out.... again, with the $10 games it about 1/2 BR at the tables....

      Now I know PS suggests that 30 BI is ok to move up to the next level, but I don't like this... I play much more conservatively.... I first moved up to $5 with the $165 needed.... nearly lost it all.... second time I moved up was after a nice placing in MTT.... had bout $250.... lost more than 1/2.... after getting and seeing what other players/coaches do I have a strict policy for myself.... 75 BI at the next level and I start taking shots at it.... 100+ BI and I will play that level.... have finally now graduated to the $5 games AGAIN with a BR of $500+.... the biggest things I have found is that getting used to a downswing at a new level is touhter because the numbers are so much bigger, and the amounts get bigger.... it can severely affect some decisions you make.... expecially after a run of bad beats and suckouts....

      Anyway thats what I thought, gl everyone....