should i go for the set mine in this spot?

    • stttNNN
      stttNNN
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.07.2010 Posts: 1,333
      pretty tight reg 3.5 3bet UTG , as u can see we are deepstacked. do u guys think calling and go for the set mine here is a nice play?

      $5/$10 No Limit Holdem
      HEM2
      10 Players
      Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

      Stacks:
      UTG ($390) 39bb
      stttNNN (UTG+1) ($3,011.31) 301bb
      UTG+2 ($4,286.80) 429bb
      MP1 ($933.63) 93bb
      MP2 ($1,587.01) 159bb
      MP3 ($866.87) 87bb
      CO ($4,874.30) 487bb
      BTN ($616.59) 62bb
      SB ($2,266.31) 227bb
      BB ($1,000) 100bb

      Pre-Flop: ($15, 10 players) stttNNN is UTG+1 10:spade: 10:club:
      1 fold, stttNNN raises to $35, UTG+2 raises to $120, 7 folds, stttNNN folds
      UTG+2 wins $170 (net +$50)

      stttNNN lost $35
  • 40 replies
    • mesisification
      mesisification
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.08.2011 Posts: 1,465
      I think you should definitely setmine here. You're super deep and villain has most likely really strong range which means that you'll get tons of value if you hit a set.
    • stttNNN
      stttNNN
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.07.2010 Posts: 1,333
      Originally posted by mesisification
      I think you should definitely setmine here. You're super deep and villain has most likely really strong range which means that you'll get tons of value if you hit a set.
      :f_thumbsup:
    • Lefty85
      Lefty85
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.06.2008 Posts: 147
      I don't agree. If villain has a superstrong range, you will have to fold every non T-flop and i just don't see any reg getting it in this deep with just an overpair.

      I would also worry about getting it in set over set which would be a disaster.

      I'd rather call with a SC than with a pair of tens in this spot.
    • stttNNN
      stttNNN
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.07.2010 Posts: 1,333
      Originally posted by Lefty85
      I don't agree. If villain has a superstrong range, you will have to fold every non T-flop and i just don't see any reg getting it in this deep with just an overpair.

      I would also worry about getting it in set over set which would be a disaster.

      I'd rather call with a SC than with a pair of tens in this spot.
      why do we call with SC in this spot? we will miss the flop a tone and i think we will have a hard time plying OOP as well.
    • Itsnevereasy
      Itsnevereasy
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.08.2010 Posts: 381
      I believe you have to call. Even If you don't stack him on txx, you still get a lot of value. Fold suited connectors...
    • Lefty85
      Lefty85
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.06.2008 Posts: 147
      Well because there are a lot more boards on which you can continue with a SC, you don't have to worry about villain having a higher straight or flush because he has AA-QQ almost all the time. Being in the hand on later streets gives you the opportunity to bluff him out at some time.

      I never understand how people think they can make money by folding 7 out of 8 flops.

      You are putting in 12bbs, so you basicly need to win 96bbs when you hit. Not to mention time your set gets flushed, overset, straight. Or villains just c/folds his A-K.

      Also if i notice my opponents start to setmine because we are deep i just start 3-betting junk in any position because they fold every flop and i might just crack their set when i hit my crazy straight or flush. Or i confuse them by checking back my aces on 2-2-4 so they loose even more because they suddenly think their pair is good.
    • Itsnevereasy
      Itsnevereasy
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      Joined: 08.08.2010 Posts: 381
      Well because there are a lot more boards on which you can continue with a SC, you don't have to worry about villain having a higher straight or flush because he has AA-QQ almost all the time. Being in the hand on later streets gives you the opportunity to bluff him out at some time.


      I think I agree you with you now that I think about it. With suited connectors, you can put a lot of pressure vs QQ-AA. Are you a FR player btw? What stakes do you play?
    • stttNNN
      stttNNN
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.07.2010 Posts: 1,333
      Originally posted by Lefty85
      Well because there are a lot more boards on which you can continue with a SC, you don't have to worry about villain having a higher straight or flush because he has AA-QQ almost all the time. Being in the hand on later streets gives you the opportunity to bluff him out at some time.

      I never understand how people think they can make money by folding 7 out of 8 flops.

      You are putting in 12bbs, so you basicly need to win 96bbs when you hit. Not to mention time your set gets flushed, overset, straight. Or villains just c/folds his A-K.

      Also if i notice my opponents start to setmine because we are deep i just start 3-betting junk in any position because they fold every flop and i might just crack their set when i hit my crazy straight or flush. Or i confuse them by checking back my aces on 2-2-4 so they loose even more because they suddenly think their pair is good.
      cool man! I think I'll just have something new to put in to my game now! thx alot for all comments.

      I think I agree you with you now that I think about it. With suited connectors, you can put a lot of pressure vs QQ-AA. Are you a FR player btw? What stakes do you play?
      Yes I am a FR player , playing on a swedish site from NL20€-NL200€. what about u?
    • Johnis
      Johnis
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.07.2009 Posts: 77
      Ok, I am not expert in this super deep play, but here are my 2 cents. I am a regular on NL 50 FR on stars btw.

      First of all, you don't give us absolutely any information about your opponent. What range would he 3b you, how is his post flop play, etc. I would definitelly call TT OOP against a tight range vs any player, especially aggro opponent. When you hit your set, you can get a lot of value. Set over set happens, but who says that you have to go all in on ugly boards ? Just X-c then.
      And I might consider calling TT OOP against a very passive opponent as well, since he might give up a lot of his AK combos postflop. (Question here is, if he 3b AK this deep)

      Calling Suited connectors OOP doesn't sound too good to me, if you put your villain on a strong range. You will hit your flushdraws and straight draws only very rarely (you can check this on equilab, dont remember exact numbers), and therefore you would have to rely on playing postflop without initiative, and without position with a speculative hand vs strong range. Sounds like easy money for your opponent.
    • mesisification
      mesisification
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.08.2011 Posts: 1,465
      We aren't putting in 12bb, we are putting in 8,5bb because we allready opened for 3,5bb so we have to win like 68bb if we hit our set and I think we can definitely win that amount if we hit a set. And what comes to flushes and higher flushes, if villains range is most likely QQ+ and AK or something similar, villain doesnt have many flushes/straights in his range and I wouldn't play for stacks to board like AQTxx.

      I just think this is a super easy call this deep, not sure why you think otherwise ?(
    • stttNNN
      stttNNN
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.07.2010 Posts: 1,333
      thx alot again for all ur comments! :)

      Im always starting 100bb deep so this type of spots I am not sure how to play. But after all this comments I think i know how to play it!

      Villains 3bet range in this spot is like QQ+ AK sometimes its only KK+ :P
    • metza
      metza
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.01.2012 Posts: 2,220
      Originally posted by mesisification
      We aren't putting in 12bb, we are putting in 8,5bb because we allready opened for 3,5bb so we have to win like 68bb if we hit our set and I think we can definitely win that amount if we hit a set. And what comes to flushes and higher flushes, if villains range is most likely QQ+ and AK or something similar, villain doesnt have many flushes/straights in his range and I wouldn't play for stacks to board like AQTxx.

      I just think this is a super easy call this deep, not sure why you think otherwise ?(
      I agree with you that it may be a +EV call, but I think its not a mandatory defend vs 3bets. I dunno how tight UTG ranges are in FR, but I imagine its not even close to exploitable to fold TT here vs such a big 3bet. So folding isn't terrible either.

      If villain plays very well postflop and understands that you're just setmining with calls, I actually do not think that it will be +EV to flat TT here as I do not see you winning 68bb long run average when hitting a set. I think its also worthwhile to note that it isn't that common for TT to have top set. More often than not there will be an overcard as well and if you're playing pot control (which is totally reasonable 300bb deep) that will greatly detract from the profitability of the spot.
    • Lefty85
      Lefty85
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      Joined: 08.06.2008 Posts: 147
      I agree with you that it may be a +EV call, but I think its not a mandatory defend vs 3bets. I dunno how tight UTG ranges are in FR, but I imagine its not even close to exploitable to fold TT here vs such a big 3bet. So folding isn't terrible either.

      If villain plays very well postflop and understands that you're just setmining with calls, I actually do not think that it will be +EV to flat TT here as I do not see you winning 68bb long run average when hitting a set. I think its also worthwhile to note that it isn't that common for TT to have top set. More often than not there will be an overcard as well and if you're playing pot control (which is totally reasonable 300bb deep) that will greatly detract from the profitability of the spot.


      This so much, when villain understands that your basicly setmining he will probably check behind most turns when you call the flop or even fold to a c/raise. Also the amount you will loose when you get set over set will almost erase all profits when you got your 100bb on T-x-x. If you are going to potcontrol on Q-T-x you will never win enough with your sets to make up for your c/folds.
    • FFRRAANNKKIIEE
      FFRRAANNKKIIEE
      Silver
      Joined: 30.12.2010 Posts: 3,107
      standard call,
      saying that tight reg will not stack off with an over pair this deep does not make any sense because we don't need him to stack off his 300bbs, he will most surely pay up to 100 bbs with AA/KK over a set. and if he pays 60+ bbs when we hit set it's a +EV call. (too lazy to calculate, 8.5x7.5 so I just said 60+)
    • Lefty85
      Lefty85
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.06.2008 Posts: 147
      Originally posted by Itsnevereasy
      I think I agree you with you now that I think about it. With suited connectors, you can put a lot of pressure vs QQ-AA. Are you a FR player btw? What stakes do you play?
      I'm playing FR 100nl - 400nl. Even if calling would be 0 EV, it's just high variance and it's easier to make an exploitable fold as long as you're not being exploited.
    • metza
      metza
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.01.2012 Posts: 2,220
      Originally posted by Lefty85
      Originally posted by Itsnevereasy
      I think I agree you with you now that I think about it. With suited connectors, you can put a lot of pressure vs QQ-AA. Are you a FR player btw? What stakes do you play?
      I'm playing FR 100nl - 400nl. Even if calling would be 0 EV, it's just high variance and it's easier to make an exploitable fold as long as you're not being exploited.
      Is folding TT actually exploitable though? If you're opening like 10% or whatever UTG, you can probably fold TT and still have reasonable fold to 3b %. Especially since villain is 3betting quite large so you don't need to defend as often.
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,086
      If you fold here, you shouldn't be open-raising in the first place.
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,086
      I have reread this thread carefully because it's interesting. There is an important point to be made: If you don't take this super-easy call because you are deep, then you are afraid of flopping.

      Ffs, according to posts above, you know what the opponent is holding, AA, KK. You basically have a holecard camera. Call with everything you open with in the first place (if this deep), suited connectors too.

      Do you think Phil Ivey (or anyone else you would consider really good) would pass on this perfect opportunity?

      The OP also indicates in one of the posts in the middle that he doesn't know what to do when getting deep. The solution is just to leave the table the very moment you get deep. Scared money don't play well.

      /**/

      As far as stacking your opponent if the board comes as you want, then the "standard line" will not work. You can use the standard line 100bb deep (for which it is pretty much designed), but much deeper, then you need to be innovative.

      Stacking here begins with a massive donk on the flop. If he folds - well, you missed out on a puny c-bet from him. If he calls - continue donking with large bets.

      But, here is the fine point, he might very well raise with his AA/KK overpair, not enjoying being donked into by a creep. You call. Now you are in a sweet spot. You have built a big pot for the turn, bigger than a check-raise would achieve. Best of all, your opponent has the initiative... You take it from here.

      To be sure, the above line doesn't have the highest EV versus every opponent, but it has the highest chance of getting it in. Some opponents will bite. The now ridiculed Super System II takes this line. It's still an interesting read, and it's primarily for very deep stack NL Hold'em, 200bb+. Another reference would be No Limit Hold'em - Theory and Practice by Sklansky and (I think) Miller. (Unfashionable too - but still correct) They handle this situation too - how to get it all in deep with the nuts, and also provide some number crunching.

      /**/

      As far as not getting stacked, on an AKT board, why not just proceed cautiously? Check and call as many times you want, based on the size of your opponents bets. You simply cannot get stacked.

      On an KTX board, you simply have to go further, versus a looser opponent perhaps all the way. You are supposed to sometimes lose money with the second nuts - or else you will rarely win a really big one. To get action you must give action.

      /**/

      Did I mention you should consider stealing on ragged flops like 972? You know what he is holding, but he can't be to sure of your holding.

      /**/

      Sorry about the rant, the advocating of the wimpy play of folding the fifth or sixth strongest hand for a few bb when 300bb deep, and when the opponents cards are face up, got me a little upset.
    • ETBrooD
      ETBrooD
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.09.2009 Posts: 2,421
      Originally posted by YohanN7
      Well argued imo. Of course the better someone is, the less money he'll put in with an overpair. But when you just play it straight forward, most people can't get away against bets on two streets, unless the board is ridiculously dangerous.
      Don't always play like most people would do. Think of lines and betsizes so that it's really hard not to pay you off after you hit.

      It is in fact much easier to get paid off by a TAG than a LAG in this spot. Because the LAG doesn't have so many hands that he can bring to the showdown, therefore he'd rather stab & fold than pay you off when you bet or raise.