Ranges for VPIP and aggression

    • Pokerstrategy101
      Pokerstrategy101
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.10.2013 Posts: 6
      Dear Poker community,

      In HM2 we find pre-edited ranges for "Fish", "Whale", "Rock", "ABC" etc.

      I wanted to ask whether there is general agreement in poker theory, when a player is loose and when aggressive, or whether this is a more subjective view and that many players see this in different ways.

      I want to divide the poker player data I collected into different groups:

      1: loose - aggressive
      2: loose - passive
      3: tight - aggressive
      4: tight - passive

      I found one article that said a VPIP below 23 is tight. Between 23 and 32 is semi loose, and above is loose or very loose.

      What do you think about this division? Are there academic articles that design these ranges?

      Which factors would you use for aggression, and which ranges? Again maybe you know a nice article on this topic?


      I am doing research on online poker and financial trading. I do not use my data for online poker playing.

      I would be very thankful for your help.
  • 7 replies
    • jeppann
      jeppann
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.06.2011 Posts: 68
      Just VPIP by itself does not tell a lot about how aggressive your opponent is. An opponent with a high VPIP can still be a passive limper. You kinda have to combine VPIP and PFR to get a sense of how aggressive someone is.
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 9,625
      Hi, PokerStrategy101,

      The player categories in HM2 rely on several stats:
        vpip
        pfr
        3bet
        Aggression factor

      "loose" or "tight" depends partly on whether the player is at a 6-handed or full-ring table.

      "general agreement" is hard to find in poker.

      At a table full of people playing 10/8 (vpip/pfr) someone playing 18/16 would have a field day, but the situation would be entirely different if the rest of the people at the table were playing 33/30 -- although the player could conceivably be profitable in both circumstances.

      Some aspects of this question are discussed in strategy articles, but you would need higher status to view them.

      Why not make this research a practical study?
      Get some free poker money and play some hands -- you'll then have a much better understanding of things, and you'll have access to the articles.

      You may even make some $$ or €€

      Best of luck,
      --VS
    • Harrier88
      Harrier88
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.05.2012 Posts: 2,029
      It should also be mentioned that these values can differ a lot depending on the format of poker. 6-max is generally played a lot looser than full ring, so different values are considered the norm. The values you mentioned (VPIP below 23 = tight etc.) sound more like 6-max to me.

      And heads-up is a completely different story...
    • Pokerstrategy101
      Pokerstrategy101
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.10.2013 Posts: 6
      Thanks for your support guys.

      One further question:

      If I am playing 6-handed NL Holdem, and I want to determine whether a player is "aggressive" pre flop, what would the ranges be for PFR and 3bet?

      I know you said there is no "general agreement", but maybe there are some ranges (only approximately) what determines whether one is said to be aggressive pre flop or rather passive.

      I would be very thankful for help.
    • Harrier88
      Harrier88
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.05.2012 Posts: 2,029
      Originally posted by Pokerstrategy101
      Thanks for your support guys.

      One further question:

      If I am playing 6-handed NL Holdem, and I want to determine whether a player is "aggressive" pre flop, what would the ranges be for PFR and 3bet?

      I know you said there is no "general agreement", but maybe there are some ranges (only approximately) what determines whether one is said to be aggressive pre flop or rather passive.

      I would be very thankful for help.
      According to Pokertracker 4's "Leaktracker" software, average winning players at low limit shorthanded cash games have a PFR between 12.7% and 20%, and a 3bet percentage between 4.15% and 8.83%.

      If your opponent's stats differ considerably from these values, you can consider them to be aggressive or passive. Keep in mind, though, that you need a good sample size to reach any meaningful conclusions.

      Hope that helps.
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 9,625
      Originally posted by Harrier88
      Originally posted by Pokerstrategy101
      Thanks for your support guys.

      One further question:

      If I am playing 6-handed NL Holdem, and I want to determine whether a player is "aggressive" pre flop, what would the ranges be for PFR and 3bet?

      I know you said there is no "general agreement", but maybe there are some ranges (only approximately) what determines whether one is said to be aggressive pre flop or rather passive.

      I would be very thankful for help.
      According to Pokertracker 4's "Leaktracker" software, average winning players at low limit shorthanded cash games have a PFR between 12.7% and 20%, and a 3bet percentage between 4.15% and 8.83%.

      If your opponent's stats differ considerably from these values, you can consider them to be aggressive or passive. Keep in mind, though, that you need a good sample size to reach any meaningful conclusions.

      Hope that helps.
      Wow -- those ranges are rather wide -- and oddly precise

      4.15%
      Does that mean if my 3Bet is 4.12 something is wrong? The numbers seem a bit weird.

      I wonder what they would be for the average break-even player, the average losing player and the average player.

      Do losing players 3Bet more or less -- or both?

      Rather then trying to aim for particular stats, if you learn what ranges to open raise by position, and who to 3Bet and when, you will be a winning player. And THEN when you check your stats you will find that they fall into the winning player ranges.

      Bear in mind that you can do EVERYTHING RIGHT and still have a downswing of 20, 30 or even 100 thousand hands, and have winning player stats, and actually lose money.

      One hand at a time, one decision at a time.

      There is a wealth of material in the strategy section, but you'll need to be at least bronze to unlock it.

      If you take the quiz and/or sign up with one of the affiliated Poker Rooms you'll be bronze automagically. On your way, check out the free poker money.

      The article I recommend is bronze level:
      The 8 Player Types - How to Get Their Money

      As you read it you'll find that to beat a nit, you have to play more loosely, and to beat a LAGTard, you have to tighten up.

      Oh, and if you are unable to be bronze for some reason, I just noticed that all the beginner course lessons are now basic.

      Best of luck,
      --VS
    • Harrier88
      Harrier88
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.05.2012 Posts: 2,029
      Originally posted by VorpalF2F
      I wonder what they would be for the average break-even player, the average losing player and the average player.
      You got it, boss! ;)
      Here are the statistics for NL5 6-max as of today.





      I hope the guys from Pokertracker don't mind me sharing all this stuff...
      They are on this forum too, aren't they?

      Btw, if someone's stats are like 0.02% off from the ranges I mentioned above, that obviously doesn't mean anything. But if they are way off you can assume that those players have a pretty "idiosyncratic" playing style, to say the least.