PT4 - 4bet stats

    • MasochisticDesire
      MasochisticDesire
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2010 Posts: 486
      Hi all,

      just wondering what the difference is between '4bet Preflop %' and '4bet Preflop Ratio' and which would be a better indicator of 4bet hand range?

      I here of the stat '4bet Preflop Range' but cant seem to find it.
      If it exists, how does this differ from the first two I mentioned?

      Thanks all,
      MD
  • 15 replies
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,904
      Hey. MasochisticDesire
      I don't have PT4, but from the names, I'm going to make the guess that 4Bet % is the % of the times that player 4bets when facing a 3Bet.

      Ratio would be the time 4Bet : times other.

      So if player 4Bets 20% of the time the ratio would be 4:1 (80:20)

      4Bet range is an HM2 stat -- I don't know about PT4
      Maybe it doesn't exist in PT4, or goes by another name.

      Best of luck,
      --VS
    • MasochisticDesire
      MasochisticDesire
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2010 Posts: 486
      Thanks Vorpal,

      My confusion with 4bet % is -
      Is a % of the % villain open raises?

      eg: villain PFR reads 20% and 4bet 5%.
      Villains 4bet is 5% of total hands or 5% of their PFR aka 1% total 4bet?

      mmmm.

      Thanks again,
      MD
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,904
      Hi, MasochisticDesire
      I think that it is situational -- if 4Bet is 5%, then he 4Bets in 5% of the situations where a 4Bet is possible.

      It would be nice if the two major tracking software providers would publish a "stats dictionary" describing for us what the stats really mean and unambiguously define how they are calculated.

      And if they have already done so, I would LOVE to have the link.

      Cheers,
      --VS
    • PokerTracker
      PokerTracker
      Gold
      Joined: 07.06.2011 Posts: 642
      Originally posted by MasochisticDesire
      Hi all,

      just wondering what the difference is between '4bet Preflop %' and '4bet Preflop Ratio' and which would be a better indicator of 4bet hand range?
      Neither stat can determine a preflop 4Bet range. The range cannot be determined because PokerTracker only knows information from hands that are displayed at showdown. A stat is calculated by tracking any action that can be observed divided by the number of opportunities the player has to take that action. So for example the 4Bet Preflop stat is the number of times that the player 4Bet preflop divided by the number of opportunities that player had to 4Bet Preflop. But this is just a frequency of 4Betting, this frequency can give us some insights into that players range but it is impossible to know the actual range unless we know the player is playing from a chart (and we never know that of course). For example we don't know if a player will include QQ or JJ in his or her 4Bet range, or if they will balance their 4Bet range to create a "polarized" range with hands like A2s.

      The 4Bet Ratio is intended to show what percentage of all hands a player is willing to 4+Bet with given that he raised. For example, a player with a PFR of 20 and a 4Bet of 5 raises 20% of hands, and 4 Bets 5% of those; 20 * 5 / 100 = 1. Thus this player has been shown to 4+Bet 1% of his hands. Once again this is not the opponent's range, it is only a representation that makes your decision process easier when estimating what that range could be.

      I here of the stat '4bet Preflop Range' but cant seem to find it.
      If it exists, how does this differ from the first two I mentioned?

      Thanks all,
      MD
      For the record, if there is a stat anywhere which lists 4Bet range it is either calculated incorrectly, or it can only be used for the HERO. This is why we included a 4Bet Range NoteTracker Autonote in PT4, but this is just the range that we can observe at showdown - not the actual range.
    • PokerTracker
      PokerTracker
      Gold
      Joined: 07.06.2011 Posts: 642
      [quote]Originally posted by VorpalF2F
      Hi, MasochisticDesire
      I think that it is situational -- if 4Bet is 5%, then he 4Bets in 5% of the situations where a 4Bet is possible.[quote]

      Count of 4Bets made / Count of opportunities to 4Bet, all probability stats are made this way.

      It would be nice if the two major tracking software providers would publish a "stats dictionary" describing for us what the stats really mean and unambiguously define how they are calculated.


      PokerTracker 4 includes the definitions of every stat in PokerTracker 4, including the actual calculations used to create the stat - AND the ability for you to create your own custom stats too! Click Configure > Statistics to read the definitions. We stopped posting our stats on our website because we found other companies copying our intellectual property without permission and most users want this information in PT4 while they are playing rather than forcing them to look this information up on our website.
    • MasochisticDesire
      MasochisticDesire
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2010 Posts: 486
      Thank you VERY much for your responses,
      this has been very instructional.
    • MasochisticDesire
      MasochisticDesire
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2010 Posts: 486
      In case anyone has similar queries at a later date and finds this topic through search or what have you, I have configured 4bet hand% in PT4 but dont think I can upload it to ps.com.
      Add me in community and I'll skype/email n your direction.

      Grind,
      MD
    • PokerTracker
      PokerTracker
      Gold
      Joined: 07.06.2011 Posts: 642
      Originally posted by MasochisticDesire
      In case anyone has similar queries at a later date and finds this topic through search or what have you, I have configured 4bet hand% in PT4 but dont think I can upload it to ps.com.
      Add me in community and I'll skype/email n your direction.

      Grind,
      MD
      Please explain what you mean by "4Bet Hand %". Is this a custom stat? What is the definition of the custom stat so we can confirm the stat would work? You can upload the custom stat to PokerTrackers Download Warehouse here - > https://www.pokertracker.com/custom/share
    • MasochisticDesire
      MasochisticDesire
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2010 Posts: 486
      I am just refering to the (pfr x 4bet) / 100
      I am sure it is not the correct term but I know what I mean ;)
      As the upload needs a title, what would you call it?

      heres the code in PT4, sure there must be half a dozen on that fantastic link you posted (thanks for that btw - already picked up some stuff I need and saved myself a an hour or two.)

      ((cnt_pfr / cnt_pfr_opp) * 100) * ((cnt_p_raise_3bet / (cnt_p_4bet_opp - cnt_p_5bet_opp)) * 100) / 100

      It was 'validated' in customise statistic view and is accurate in my results tab and in hand replayer so I am hopeful it will work at the tables.

      I will upload this if someone hasnt already done so (unlikely I think.)

      MD
    • MasochisticDesire
      MasochisticDesire
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2010 Posts: 486
      Thanks for all your time already but I have more Q's:

      does PT4 already offer stats such as
      3bet PF and fold to 4bet Xposition vs Yposition ?

      That might be hard to read -
      eg: 3bet BBvsBUT fold to BUT 4bet

      If not, I have found the same for COvsBUT on your site and can work out the formula if needs be.

      MD
    • PokerTracker
      PokerTracker
      Gold
      Joined: 07.06.2011 Posts: 642
      Originally posted by MasochisticDesire
      I am just refering to the (pfr x 4bet) / 100
      I am sure it is not the correct term but I know what I mean ;)
      As the upload needs a title, what would you call it?

      heres the code in PT4, sure there must be half a dozen on that fantastic link you posted (thanks for that btw - already picked up some stuff I need and saved myself a an hour or two.)

      ((cnt_pfr / cnt_pfr_opp) * 100) * ((cnt_p_raise_3bet / (cnt_p_4bet_opp - cnt_p_5bet_opp)) * 100) / 100

      It was 'validated' in customise statistic view and is accurate in my results tab and in hand replayer so I am hopeful it will work at the tables.

      I will upload this if someone hasnt already done so (unlikely I think.)

      MD
      We already provide 4Bet+ Ratio in PokerTracker 4. A custom stat is not needed, so it would not be accepted into the Download Warehouse. If you chose to use RFI instead of PFR, then that would be something we could consider adding since it creates a new stat.
    • PokerTracker
      PokerTracker
      Gold
      Joined: 07.06.2011 Posts: 642
      Originally posted by MasochisticDesire
      Thanks for all your time already but I have more Q's:

      does PT4 already offer stats such as
      3bet PF and fold to 4bet Xposition vs Yposition ?

      That might be hard to read -
      eg: 3bet BBvsBUT fold to BUT 4bet

      If not, I have found the same for COvsBUT on your site and can work out the formula if needs be.

      MD
      We provide 3Bet BY position and 3Bet VS Position stats in PT4, these are included in the default HUD popup under the TOOLS heading.

    • MasochisticDesire
      MasochisticDesire
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2010 Posts: 486
      Thanks but its not quite what Im looking for.
      I am hoping for a stat that difines both the position that is folding having 3bet and the exact position of the 4better.
      eg: 3bet BUT vs CO open and fold to CO 4bet

      A simpler example of the kind of stat I am looking for would be:
      3bet Xposition vs Yposition

      That pop up will be very useful however, thank you.
      Some of those stats that appear in the TOOL pop-up dont appear in my 'configure - statistics' view.
      Any way I can ammend this?

      MD
    • MasochisticDesire
      MasochisticDesire
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2010 Posts: 486
      I also exported and imported that popup into a new HUD profile and I cant seem to assign it to either the table or an individual stat
    • MasochisticDesire
      MasochisticDesire
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2010 Posts: 486
      Originally posted by MasochisticDesire
      I also exported and imported that popup into a new HUD profile and I cant seem to assign it to either the table or an individual stat
      Sorry mate, I have sorted this one out.

      Jus the other tricky questions now ;)

      Thanks,
      MD