general assumptions fish at STT SNG

    • Steambull
      Steambull
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.08.2010 Posts: 749
      Hi there,

      I'm a MTTSNG player trying to add 9 man (hyper) STT to my regular schedule as MTTSNG do not run in the morning. First thing I did was practicing many ICM situations as this is very different from MTTSNG where chipEV is the main model for the most part.

      It doesn't work out. Mainly on lower stakes, as my EV roi gets higher when stakes increase. So i must have an Obvious flaw in my game trying to use equilibrium vs fish. I know it must be horrible...

      So the question comes down to this; Where do fish differ te most from equilibrium?
      In MTTSNG they mostly call too tight in my assumption. But the same fish ppb calls the same range in STT which will mostly be too wide, due to the bubble Factor?
      This might explain why my EV roi is higher at the $30's than at the 7's. I seem to do better vs regs than fish.
      f.e. lets take a common situation, like even stacks on the bubble.

      Everyone has 10 bb (10-10-10-10)
      so the equilibrium for the BTN is to be shoving:
      43.5%, 22+ Ax+ K2s+ K6o+ Q2s+ Q9o+ J4s+ J9o+ T7s+ T9o 97s+ 87s 76s 65s 54s
      sb calls: 3.8%, TT+ AQs+ AKo
      bb calls: 7.7%, 88+ ATs+ ATo+

      I cannot imagine that a random knows this kind of stuff, and will be calling lighter, right?

      So if we add a couple of hands more like 66-88, ATs, our own shoving range suddenly has to be like 7%: 88+ ATs+ AJo+ I mean, mannn that's a huge difference.... A hand like K5o which is slightly +EV in equilibrium is suddenly a -1.07 shove.

      This might look like beginner stuff to you guys, but i'm so used to MTTSNG ranges that this stuff kinda surprised me. How freaking huge the impact of non-equilibrium plays from opponents have on your own ranges in STT.

      Soo maybe the some more experienced players at STT here could give me some insights at the geneal assumptions of recreational players at STT.

      1. Do they (in general) call too wide in high bubble factor situations? (and so do we have to considerably decrease our shoving range?)

      2. Do they (in general) shove too tight in high bubble factor situations? (and do we have to tighten up our calling range considerably)


      3. Is it in general a good adjustment to shove way tighter than the nash eqiulibrium in a game full of recreational players in STT (to avoid f***ing up both of our equity)?
  • 3 replies
    • rmslobato
      rmslobato
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.12.2009 Posts: 646
      Hi! I'm a begginer STT player (currently playing the first step 9-man $1.5 turbo).
      I think this is really good stuff to understand.

      I don't know if it was because of my English, but I didn't understand your post:

      Originally posted by Steambull

      f.e. lets take a common situation, like even stacks on the bubble.

      Everyone has 10 bb (10-10-10-10)
      so the equilibrium for the BTN is to be shoving:
      43.5%, 22+ Ax+ K2s+ K6o+ Q2s+ Q9o+ J4s+ J9o+ T7s+ T9o 97s+ 87s 76s 65s 54s
      sb calls: 3.8%, TT+ AQs+ AKo
      bb calls: 7.7%, 88+ ATs+ ATo+

      I cannot imagine that a random knows this kind of stuff, and will be calling lighter, right?

      So if we add a couple of hands more like 66-88, ATs, our own shoving range suddenly has to be like 7%: 88+ ATs+ AJo+ I mean, mannn that's a huge difference.... A hand like K5o which is slightly +EV in equilibrium is suddenly a -1.07 shove.
      Which range do we add 66-88?
      The bb calls range tighter a little bit?

      Originally posted by Steambull
      1. Do they (in general) call too wide in high bubble factor situations? (and so do we have to considerably decrease our shoving range?)

      2. Do they (in general) shove too tight in high bubble factor situations? (and do we have to tighten up our calling range considerably)

      3. Is it in general a good adjustment to shove way tighter than the nash eqiulibrium in a game full of recreational players in STT (to avoid f***ing up both of our equity)?
      My (tiny) experience shows that they push/call very tight.
      But, there's some players that are really maniacs (shoving/calling too wide, much more if they have big stacks).

      Some of this stuff were discussed in the last training session of Collin with Milan playing. Check that out.

      The point is that regs are often planying nash ranges against fishs and that is really bad.
      I think the better aproach might be something like:
      if the player have more likely passive/tight stats, you go ahead with nash ranges and tigther it just a little bit. Much more the player isn't passive/tight, much more you have to tighter the range.



      PS

      Sorry if my post is stupid, i just have to put it in words so i can see where I'm wrong. I think is very useful to join the discussion rather than just read it.
    • akrammon
      akrammon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.05.2009 Posts: 3,142
      Originally posted by Steambull

      1. Do they (in general) call too wide in high bubble factor situations? (and so do we have to considerably decrease our shoving range?)

      2. Do they (in general) shove too tight in high bubble factor situations? (and do we have to tighten up our calling range considerably)


      3. Is it in general a good adjustment to shove way tighter than the nash eqiulibrium in a game full of recreational players in STT (to avoid f***ing up both of our equity)?
      Hey!

      2) - Easiest answer: YES! With three capital letters.

      1) Generally, but not necessarily. They generally have more static ranges, so the handstrength of a given hand doesn't vary THAT much in their eyes. Which generally means that they call wider than nash when their nash is less than 10%, but it can also mean that they call way tighter (like if their nash callrange is 40% in a BvB situation, they will call that VERY rarely)

      3)I'd say probably not. Of course there are situations where you have to be tighter, but tightening up too much is a dangerous move. Let me bring something to your attention:
      In the hand that you have mentioned, SB's openshove range is 100%, and BB's callrange against the SB is supposed to be 12.5% or something very similar. So, if they follow nash, they will collide 12.5% times when you fold, meaning that every fold you take gets you roughly 12% ITM.
      It is crucial to understand that in order to get correct ranges for yourself, you need to set up the ranges for others as well - and every range they can possibly have. These are the so called "Hero folds" scenarios.
      If a fold you make gives you a 3% chance of getting ITM for example, then your shoves will worth more and it will result in a wider pushrange. I think the BB's 12% callrange (vs SB) is reasonable, but I really don't think the SB will push 100% there. Even if he is a player who realizes this opportunity, I'd be surprised if he went 75%.
    • Steambull
      Steambull
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.08.2010 Posts: 749
      OK, thanks alot for helping me trough with this, both.

      let me use this theory in 'theoretical practise' :f_p: So here we are again at the bubble stage of a STT luckily only with randoms. We ignore the fact that we can minraise.


      10-10-10-10
      CO: shove tad bit tighter cause randoms call too light here, compensated a bit by the lack of clashes in hero folds scenarios, 25-30%?
      BTN: same, but now 30-35%? Call CO even tighter, maybe JJ+!?
      SB: shove ATC as bb won't call enough. Call CO/BTN tighter, TT/AK?
      BB: call everyone tighter, especially bvb!?


      furthermore using the general rule; be cautious in situations where randoms SHOULD be calling very tight, cause they usually wont!?

      f.i. 3-12-12-12

      in this example BTN should easily shove ATC in eqiulibrium, according that blinds call only 88+ and fold AK and so on. so against randoms who maybe likely will be calling 77+ AJs+ AQo+ you should drastically tighten up to like 20-30%!?
      Again, ignoring the minraising option which i.m.o. would be superior here.