silver charts

    • adr0001
      adr0001
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.03.2008 Posts: 271
      In the chart “Actions against 1 raiser(and 1 caller)” it doesn’s say what non-pair hands are good to 3-bet against a raise and at least 1 call. In the chart “Actions against 1 raise and at least 1 call” it says only what hands are good to call. Same thing for the “Big Blind Defense” chart. What should I do from BB against 1 raiser and at least 1 call? And what hands are good to complete from SB when there are limpers?

      If button raises and there is at least a call what pairs should I 3-bet from SB?
      If MP2 raises and everyone folds what offsuited hands should I 3-bet from SB?
      There is nothing in the chart.

      Another thing I noticed is that the 3bet range from BB is tighter than the 3bet range from SB. For instance, if button raises I should 3bet with 22+, A2s+,K9s+,QTs+,A3+,KT+ from SB and with 44+,A5s+,KJs+,A8+,KJ+ from BB. Why?
  • 11 replies
    • ciRith
      ciRith
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.03.2005 Posts: 18,556
      Hi adr0001.

      1) The first chart you mentioned is just about whether you can 3-bet or not. So all non pair hands listed in there are a 3-bet.

      2) The second is which hands you coldcall with. I have no idea why the pocketpairs are here in as well. I guess that you coldcall with these pocketpairs if you can't 3-bet (chart 1) and if there are more than 1 caller in as well as chart 1 doesn't help you out anymore.

      3) We have no charts for a raise/3-bet/cap in the BB in the situation you described. It just gets too complex to make a chart for them all. You can call if your equity is below average (not too low) and you can raise/3-bet/cap if your equity is above it. There is a gold article which tells you how to do this but this shouldn't be too important on the micro limits. :)
      Often you can call to hit a good hand as well. You just count your potodds and then decide by this list (it's on the approx chart as well which is avaiable at the gold section):

      3:1 suited connectors
      3,5:1 suited 1-gap
      4:1 suited 2-gaps
      5,5:1 any suited

      5,5:1 offsuited connectors
      7,5:1 offsuited 1-gap
      11,5:1 offsuited 2-gaps

      4) "If MP2 raises and everyone folds what offsuited hands should I 3-bet from SB?
      There is nothing in the chart."

      Sure this is the chart. The 3rd chart (Actions against 1 raiser ( and 1 caller) handles this as well.

      5) The BB range is tighter as you here need more than the average equity to 3-bet as you can just call if you aren't ahead. This is explained in the gold section as well. :)
    • adr0001
      adr0001
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.03.2008 Posts: 271
      Hi.

      1) So if I have QTs in SB, MP2,MP3,CO limp and BU raises I should 3-bet? Isn’t a 3bet with QTs in this situation too loose?

      4) I looked at the 3rd chart but for 3beting from SB against a MP2 raiser with offsuited cards, and for 3beting from SB against a BU raiser with pairs when someone called, the spaces are empty. I suppose it should have been AJ in the first case and 99 in the second but not sure.
    • ciRith
      ciRith
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.03.2005 Posts: 18,556
      1) This chart is ONLY for 1 raiser and up to 1 caller (for pocketpairs listed seperatly only) with him. If there are more callers then go by the 3rd chart from this article: http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/fixed-limit/793/ or call by the chart I mentioned at 2) above.
      Whenever something isn't clear with the new charts you should use the old ones. They are tighter so you won't make big mistakes by using them as long as you don't have advanced strategies for it.

      4) Very weird indeed. Your thoughts should be correct. I'll report it to our article writers. Thanks for telling. :)
    • adr0001
      adr0001
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.03.2008 Posts: 271
      I have 2 more questions.
      1) Why the bronze chart is looser in some situations than the silver one? For instance, the 3rd chart from the bronze ones sais to call when there is a raise and 3+ callers with hands like 65s+, KTs, J8s,J9s,ATs,AJs. The silver chart sais to only call with KJs+,QTs+ and JTs. Even when there are only 1 or 2 callers the bronze chart is looser. When there is 1 caller I can call with T9s+ and when there are 2 callers I can call with 87s+.
      Another example- In the chart “Actions against callers in front of you-calling/raising” from the bronze articles, it sais to call against 3 limpers with hands like K2s+(in the silver chart I can call with K6s+), T9o,KTo,QTo(these hands are folds according to the silver chart).
      Even the SHC from the basic articles is looser in some situations than the silver chart. When there are 2 limpers I should call 22-88 according to basic SHC. According to the silver charts I should fold 22 and 33 against 2 limpers.According to the bronze chart I should fold 22,33 and 44 against 2 limpers.
      In those situations is it OK to follow the looser chart? I only play 6max tables.

      2) In the bronze charts it sais to complete from SB when there are 4+ limpers with all hands. This means any 2? Even 72o? I put this question because in Small Stakes Hold’em, the only limit book I’ve read, there aren’t any situations in their chart where I should call with any 2 from SB. And that book was writen for the loosest possible limit games where 4+ limpers are something ordinary.
    • ciRith
      ciRith
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.03.2005 Posts: 18,556
      1) This is a good question. It may be because the charts where written by different persons or at different times so one of the charts isn't updated yet.
      The more reasonable reason however should be that the bronze chart is for fullring only and the silver for shorthanded only. These 2 game types are differently in how the opponents play. SH is way more aggressive so the risk of being raised after you called is higher. Postflop is way more aggressive also so you often can't draw with your weak holdings and you lose more if you have to calldown with a weak hand.

      The basic SHC is as easy as possible and the players are even worse so it's no fault to call with pocketpairs very loosely.

      If you play SH then follow the silver chart. Only use the bronze chart if a situation can't be answered by the silver chart as the silver chart is optimized to SH where the bronze is to FR.

      2) As I understand it it means that you can call any hands combined with a T-A.
      72o would be way to loose as you nearly never hit a good flop with it.
    • strat9
      strat9
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.02.2008 Posts: 511
      Are there any aspects to the bronze charts (FR) that can be applied to SH, or used along side the silver charts?

      Such as calling from SB? I realize there are odds on the gold chart but they contradict the bronze charts sort of. Everything else in SH seems to be looser but it seems from the SB the charts tend to tighten up. For instance, bronze charts say to complete SB with any pair vs. one or more limper, but in the gold charts they get 7.5:1, which is 3 limpers (2.75 actually, I think). Any suited requires 2 limpers, where as the bronze requires 1. Plus, Ax gets 20.5:1 odds which I don't think is even possible.

      Also, (silver chart) when there is a raise and two callers, I should fold AQo but call with KJs? Why is this? Is it because of the risk of being dominated?
      Some of the stuff on these threads makes some sense, but they're not quite clear to me yet.

      I guess I'm looking for some help reconciling the differences between the charts. I just switched from FR to SH .5/1 and am using the silver chart, with the gold calling odds for defending BB and SB. I am currently learning about the other stuff, but not putting it into practice yet.
    • ciRith
      ciRith
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.03.2005 Posts: 18,556
      Hi strat9,

      I try to answer all question but let me know if I miss one. :)

      1) The gold chart you refer to only goes by the odds and outs. Even AA may be just called because of that but that would be stuipid so it's only an orientation help.

      2) The reason why you call tighter is because SH is more aggressive so you don't get the same good chances to draw if you hit a draw on the flop. Also your implied odds are lower if you hit a good hand as they won't calldown that much anymore (it's still a lot ith which they calldown).
      If you don't notice any change here then calling by the bronze chart is still fine. :)

      3) AXo is only listed because that would be the theoretical odds to draw to a good hand. In real the chance of winning unimporved or the equity you get when hitting an ace makes it possible to call way looser with AXo (or even raise yourself to isolate a limper).

      4) KJs is a good multiway hand because you can hit a lot good straightdraw and a flushdraw. With coldcalling you might invite other players to join the hand so your implied odds will be very good if you hit.
      With AQo your implied odds are often bad so you should either 3-bet or fold because it plays much better in a HU or 3-way situation.
      So domination is not the main factor here. In fact KJs is way more often dominated than AQo and the coldcall is for a twopiar or better.

      5) You can go with all silver charts and add the bronze chart if a situation isn't handled on the silver charts. That should be the best way to play in the beginning.

      Don't worry that it appears so complicated. You will understand it better the more time you spend with t.
      I know how I felt as the ORC was new to everyone (we played by the old SHC on the gold FR chart before). I thought that I will never understand this complicated thing (with all the theory behind it). Today nearly every situation is already handled by the charts which may appear a bit much for beginners. :)
    • adr0001
      adr0001
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.03.2008 Posts: 271
      At 0.25/0.50 the SB is only 0.10$ and the BB is 0.25$. What adjustments do I have to do from SB when there are 2+ limpers in front? Don't complete anymore with any suited? Instead of getting 7:1 odds I will only get 5.66:1 odds with 2 limpers. The approx chart says I need 5.5:1 to call any suited. But 5.5:1 for break-even or for showing a profit? What other adjustments should I make?
    • ciRith
      ciRith
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.03.2005 Posts: 18,556
      Originally posted by adr0001
      At 0.25/0.50 the SB is only 0.10$ and the BB is 0.25$. What adjustments do I have to do from SB when there are 2+ limpers in front? Don't complete anymore with any suited? Instead of getting 7:1 odds I will only get 5.66:1 odds with 2 limpers. The approx chart says I need 5.5:1 to call any suited. But 5.5:1 for break-even or for showing a profit? What other adjustments should I make?
      Your asumption is already correct.

      You should be a bit tighter with raising firstin in the late positions. Don't raise with J5o/J6o, T6o/T7o, 97o, J2s, T3s, 94s and 85s in the SB.
      You also should defend slightly tighter in the BB. Like not defending J5o against a SB open. This isn't that important as your opponents won't change their opening range anyway very often if at all.
    • adr0001
      adr0001
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.03.2008 Posts: 271
      Originally posted by ciRith
      Your asumption is already correct.
      You mean that I should fold the suited hands when there are 2 limpers instead of calling? Isn't 5.66:1 enough to call? The approx chart says I need 5.5:1 odds.
    • ciRith
      ciRith
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.03.2005 Posts: 18,556
      Oh I think I got it wrong.

      No you just play by the approx chart. If you get the needed odds to call you call else you fold.
      If you don't feel comfortable with it you can fold as it's a close decision. With that I mean you just say yourself that you need 6:1 for any two suited or 4,5:1 withsuited 2-gaps.