BvB madness

    • kavboj84
      kavboj84
      Gold
      Joined: 16.06.2011 Posts: 1,999
      Hi everyone,

      again I need some help with hand analysis. The hand is the following:

      SB open raises and the BB calls and the flop is:

      9 :diamond: 7 :heart: Q :spade:

      and the SB c-bets the flop as usual.

      My questions are:

      - SB open raising and BB defending range
      - BB folding/calling/raising range on the flop
      - SB-s bet-fold / bet-call / bet-3bet range

      on a blank turn , say a 9 :spade: :

      - SB-s x-call / x-fold / c-bet/ c-bet-call / c-bet-3bet range
      - BB-s call / raise / cap range

      Let the river be 6 :heart: :

      - What is the best hand you fold as the BB providing you have called the flop and the turn ?

      Also some 'side questions' :

      - if the turn is an ace or a king, what is your raising range as the BB (Im interested in the bluffing range especially ) and how does your bet/calling range look like then as the SB ?

      - what is your bluffing range on a T or 8 turn as the BB providing that you have raised the flop ?
  • 15 replies
    • Baluuu111
      Baluuu111
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.02.2010 Posts: 739
      Maybe you could give the ranges you figured out. And a lot more people would comment on those. :)
    • kavboj84
      kavboj84
      Gold
      Joined: 16.06.2011 Posts: 1,999
      If I had been able to put something usable together I wouldnt have asked for help.
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,084
      And once again you have asked a question whose correct answer will take a great number of lifetimes for a human to obtain. (If by correct you mean according to GTO, as I assume you do)

      Just fold, it's rigged anyway :)
    • Avataren
      Avataren
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.04.2010 Posts: 1,621
      Originally posted by kavboj84
      If I had been able to put something usable together I wouldnt have asked for help.
      so your asking us to do your homework basically ? You could at least have tried to find a range and posted it (no matter how usable or not it would be.) and we could chip in on if its crap or perfect etc etc.
    • kavboj84
      kavboj84
      Gold
      Joined: 16.06.2011 Posts: 1,999
      @Avataren :

      Basically yes. But thats not something that happens all the time, you dont see me posting here trivial hands do you ?
      And I really dont want to say anything about the solution, because I dont want to influence anybody before someone posts a viable version. Its just something that I like this way, I like to separate and simplify things, so it is easier to understand the whys and wherefores behind them.
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,084
      Originally posted by Avataren
      Originally posted by kavboj84
      If I had been able to put something usable together I wouldnt have asked for help.
      so your asking us to do your homework basically ? You could at least have tried to find a range and posted it (no matter how usable or not it would be.) and we could chip in on if its crap or perfect etc etc.
      Yeah, and you are asking for SB opening range as a partial problem. Remember what Boomer has said; the collective work of the Polaris (and competitors) developers (resulting in a number of Ph D's) has resulted it that opening ranges for HUHU are at least close to known. (They aren't there yet.)

      Can you fix us a research grant? Some $10 million + $10 million for hardware and a few years of time, we'll give you the SB opening and BB defend range.
    • kavboj84
      kavboj84
      Gold
      Joined: 16.06.2011 Posts: 1,999
      so no analysis can be done on this hand because the SB opening range is unknown or what ?
    • JLeitmotiv
      JLeitmotiv
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2009 Posts: 756
      well, not that. but put yourself in our shoes. would you answer a a flop raise range if you aren't even given the preflop ranges? is actually your problem the preflop range? you don't think you are capable of adapting our ideas for the flop ranges given different preflop ranges?

      if you can actually put some work after our answer, then you'd realize that the preflop range isn't that important and flop ranges can be deduced once you get the usual thought behind the preflop range, no matter which one it is.

      nevertheless, i agree it's a nice hand and it asks for a deep thought. but maybe a little bit from here, a little bit from there...
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,084
      I don't think you understand the complexity of either your question or of GTO answers to be fair. Your OP requires the whole lot as answers. There are no premises except the board.

      Let N = the possible number of boards on Hold'em.

      As a matter of fact, you demand (1/N)*100% = a small but not ridiculously small percentage of the total GTO solution for BvB. Ok, a little less than that since not every street is allowed to be capped.

      Sure, analysis can be done, but that's like asking a man living in the stone age a question about the finer points of Quantum Field Theory without even giving him Newtons Law's as a hint. You can't expect anyone to know large complete chunks of that huge Nash table which contains the answer. (The Nash table that takes 120 years to compute using all computer power of Google for HUHU, except here it's BvB, which should be roughly the same.)

      It would be very different if you asked each and everyone of us how we personally would play this board - from the SB and the BB with our own (or given) complete ranges.

      It would also be very different as well if you asked each and everyone of us how we personally would guess the GTO solution to be. Fair question, but you wouldn't get many serious answers (because it's so god damned hard).

      But, even if you don't mention GTO in the OP, the way you formulate things indicate that you do want the GTO answer - especially since you wanted that in a couple of previous threads. It should be clear by now (especially from that long thread) that this is impossibly difficult. If it's not the GTO answer you want but something else, please be clear about that.

      The best that anyone can give you is a "balanced" (note the quotation marks) answer - and even that requires pretty much work. As for me, I change gears in the blinds a lot depending on who I'm against, so my "answer" would be totally useless for your purposes. Also, what balanced means is a matter of personal opinion.
    • kavboj84
      kavboj84
      Gold
      Joined: 16.06.2011 Posts: 1,999
      well if it wasnt clear you play both the SBs and BBs role. So Imagine you were playing against yourself. Is it OK now ?

      I will be completely pleased, if anyone can work out a balanced range for the spots I asked for in the first post.
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Way to overcomplicate things :)
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,084
      So the question really is how do you play this board, based on your own SB-open and BB-defense range and you may not answer unless you are balanced?
    • floaty
      floaty
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.04.2010 Posts: 893
      My thoughts on how I'de play in the big blind, not checking combo or equilab or anything. I do have 3b range in the bb so alot of hands fall off, so the worst hand I'de fold on the flop should be like J6, except for 3flushes, gappers, or something, raising 9+ pairs and all gs+. Turn play for call is to fold most of the longwaydraws that didnt improve. Not sure Ide raise anything on this turn actually, and now I'm seeing as how the raise on flop kinda messes things up on a card like this, a raise here makes no sense, nothing improves but the nines and fds and 9s would be raised on the flop. Its probably ok to overfold the turn some with the range Im left with seeing as how small the pot is. As for the river, Ide call down any pair and A-high and one or two K-highs I recon. But it depends alot on the SB and reads here. At the stakes I'm playing people rarely bluff enough on the river so I might overfold this one with a margin against some of the regulars seeing as how valueheavy their betting range is...

      My thoughts on one of the situations atleast :f_grin:
    • floaty
      floaty
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.04.2010 Posts: 893
      But I prolly wouldve raised some of the fd on the turn if I was on the spot :f_biggrin:
    • kavboj84
      kavboj84
      Gold
      Joined: 16.06.2011 Posts: 1,999
      @ YohanN7 :

      Not really, my question is what other ways are there to play this board than mine, and are they better and if so, why are they better ?

      @ floaty:

      Thanks for your comments. May I ask you to put exact ranges in, because this way it is really hard to analyze anything. You know this is an analysis and I have to be as precise as possible to make reasonable thoughts on your play.

      The best would be if you could answer each point that I denoted with a '-' character in the first post separately, because this way it is a lot easier to make a review.

      And also not that you are playing against yourself, and you dont need reads, because your own game is an open book to yourself.

      But just a quick speculative question: have you checked your equity as the BB with Ax and Kx against your SB turn and river c-bet range ?

      But I prolly wouldve raised some of the fd on the turn if I was on the spot


      Yeah thats a quite big leak, if you dont have any value combos to raise besides. But to reassure you it is not an easy question to answer if you want to raise the turn or not.