playing as bigstack on bubble

    • armo
      armo
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.03.2008 Posts: 451
      Playing last night I had some thoughts about using one's bigstack on the bubble.
      Situation: SnG buuble, lets say you are bigstack on BB, the second biggest stack raise 3.5BB from BU, shorty on SB folds.
      1) What hands you you overshove here?
      I guess 3bet range here is pretty wide, but how much exactly?

      2) And fromthe other perespective - what hands does BU call your shove?
      something like TT+,AQ/AK ?
  • 10 replies
    • frzl
      frzl
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.04.2006 Posts: 9,876
      i think nobody in the world can answer this question because there are too many informations missing. "bigstack", "second biggest" and "shortstack" is not enough. you need stacksizes to say anything about it.
    • armo
      armo
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.03.2008 Posts: 451
      It's more a general question :)
      Ok, let's say the second biggest has ~60% or less of bigstack's chip count and both have 20bb+ and two shorties with 10bb-
    • viewer88
      viewer88
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.04.2008 Posts: 5,545
      depends on villain's buttonraise range, if he raises every button you can resteal with a big range.

      You will most likely have a lot of folding equity, but you also throw your chips in against the other bigstack.

      With 20+ BB's I usualy resteal "tight" and loosen up when the blinds increase (this way you establisch a tight table image aswell).

      This stage i'd resteal with ~44+ A8+ A2s+ (assuming normal openraise range from button)

      With ~15 BB stack and slightly agressive villain I push 22+ A2+ K8+ K5s+ and higher suited connectors.
    • Grimzor
      Grimzor
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.03.2008 Posts: 421
      If by saying 10BB- you mean like 2BB then i push any two.

      Its so situation dependent you cant say anything really. If one of shorties is about to bust then just push any two. If shorties are still in and in ok-ish shape then evaluate based on stats, amount of steals villain have done etc
    • viewer88
      viewer88
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      Joined: 19.04.2008 Posts: 5,545
      When shortie had about 1~2.5 BB left you generally have less FE, because villain has to choose between gambling or losing the last bit of FE he has.
    • armo
      armo
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.03.2008 Posts: 451
      I was refering to case when shorties fold and you resteal from the player who is almost sure to get itm. It is clear that the second biggest stack does not want to jeopardy his chances of making itm and therefore can be pushed around. And back to question 2 - what is his call range?
    • rhinoneil
      rhinoneil
      Silver
      Joined: 16.04.2008 Posts: 1,159
      I think you have to make a decision about what the next size stack is playing for. I think that there are many players who will fold pretty much every time to the push in order to stay in the game.
      I would recommend pushing any two against the 2nd chippy as long as he is not pot committed, no-one else is in the pot or still to act and you can afford to take the loss if he does call.
    • typohh
      typohh
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.09.2008 Posts: 1,188
      Resteal range here is like playing chicken. Its huge -EV for two big stacks to collide. The respective hands equityis against each other almost irrelevant, there just arent many hands that the two big stacks should collide with.

      Here is a situation to demonstrate the problem. We have 4 players left in a 9 man SnG. CO and BU both have 2.5bb, and SB and BB both have 25bb. We assume CO and BU open fold. Then if SB knows BB playes according to whats +$EV (not +cEV), then SB should move in with any two cards, and BB calls with QQ+. If SB known BB moves in with ATC, then SB should move in only with QQ+. The math for this is..

      If either player folds, their equity will be 37.4% - 37.8%, depending who folded.

      If they move in and clash, winners equity will be 48.1%, and losers equity is 0%.

      So, in order to collide they need 77.7% - 78.5% equity against the other player. Presuming the other party is ATC, that means hands with more than 77.7% equity against a random hand. AKs has 67% equity, JJ has 77.4% equity, QQ has 79.9% equity. So QQ+ is required in order to collide.

      Now, if you know your opponent will play according to ICM (which practically all good SnG players do), then you can comfortably move in ATC against another big stack in a bubble, he will fold 98.6% of hands (given the stack sizes described above). If you know he will move in with ATC regardless what you do, then you will have to fold all but QQ+. So, a game of chicken.

      Now the really interesting part here is, if you know your opponent adjusts his play to your play, and you play against each other regularly. You can "train" him by ATC playing for stack preflop, when you two have big stacks in the bubble, and no other players remain in the hand. Ofcourse, the first times you call his shove with 72o the loss will be huge, but once he learns you will always move all-in and call his all-in, ICM will dictate that he cannot play against you except with monsters, despite leading your range of ATC by a ton. Once you have him "house trained" you will reap the benefits by getting his blinds over and over. Ofcourse, this is a situation where ICM breaks down, and if he adjusts accordingly there is no major gain to be had, however most good SnG players follow ICM calculations obidiently.

      I normally only post on the local forum (Finnish), but the subject was interesting so I thought I would give my 2 cents.
    • armo
      armo
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      Joined: 07.03.2008 Posts: 451
      Thanks for the detailed explanation typohh :)
    • cristy007
      cristy007
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      Joined: 31.07.2010 Posts: 26
      .