NL SH Advanced 21.10.08 (Timor83 & TribunCaesar)

    • Timor83
      Timor83
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.06.2007 Posts: 2,793
      It was a pretty interesting session with some sticky situations. A couple of hands:
      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $2(BB) Replayer Game#21379242094

      SB ($200)
      BB ($294)
      UTG ($200)
      UTG+1 ($200)
      CO ($200)
      Hero ($227)

      Dealt to Hero Q:club: K:spade:

      fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to $7, call, call,

      FLOP ($21) K:diamond: J:heart: 7:diamond:

      check, check, Hero bets $16.50, SB calls $16.50, BB folds,

      TURN ($54) K:diamond: J:heart: 7:diamond: T:spade:

      check, check,

      RIVER ($54) K:diamond: J:heart: 7:diamond: T:spade: 3:heart:

      check, Hero bets $35, SB calls $35,

      Hero shows Q:club: K:spade:
      (Flop 79.8%, Turn 88.6%)

      SB shows A:club: J:spade:
      (Flop 20.2%, Turn 11.4%)

      Hero wins $121

      Villain is 17/15 after 27k hands. The key decision is the turn here: do we bet for value and protection or do we check it behind for pot control? I think it’s close but probably a check, here’s why: we have a hand with decent but not great showdownvalue on this board, because the turn makes a lot of 2 pairs possible and completes some straight draws. Those will often go for a check/raise and put us off our hand, and there aren’t a lot of worse hands that would call a turnbarrel except for maybe K9, but those aren’t in his range a lot preflop. So we check it back and once he checks the river it’s probably close between valuebetting and checking, but I think we can squeeze out some value out of a QJ or AJ hand.
      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $2(BB) Replayer Game#21379539666

      SB ($204)
      BB ($37.75)
      Hero ($218)
      CO ($358)
      BTN ($292)

      Dealt to Hero T:club: T:heart:

      Hero raises to $7, call, fold, fold, call,

      FLOP ($22) 4:heart: 3:spade: 5:club:

      BB bets $10, Hero raises to $30, CO calls $30, BB raises to $30.75, Hero calls $0.75, CO calls $0.75,

      TURN ($114) 4:heart: 3:spade: 5:club: 6:diamond:

      Hero bets $70, CO calls $70,

      RIVER ($254) 4:heart: 3:spade: 5:club: 6:diamond: 6:club:

      Hero bets $110, CO folds,

      BB shows 8:club: 7:heart:
      (Flop 19.5%, Turn 100.0%)

      Hero shows T:club: T:heart:
      (Flop 80.5%, Turn 0.0%)

      BB wins $112
      Hero wins $140
      This one was tricky: BB is a donk, CO a good TAG (21/18/3) with whom we’ve been tangling a bit in the session, mostly preflop. The flop is a clear raise because the donkbet from the fish doesn’t mean a lot and we probably still have the best hand. Mostly we are looking to get CO out of the hand and get heads up to maximize our equity. To our discontent, he calls, which makes the pot quite big on the turn. At that point things get difficult: do we bet to protect our hand or check/call? After my raise on the flop, most one-pair hands on the flop would’ve probably gone out, those that would’ve made 2 pair on the flop already could’ve flatted to slowplay. A random float with A high is possible but not very likely. He probably 3-bets JJ+ preflop so 66-99 is possible too. But his range here is so confusing I actually had no idea what he had, especially after I decide to fire the turn again and to my surprise, he calls again. However, he second 6 on the river is actually a good card because it gives us a higher 2 pair if he had like 45 or the like. At that point, the pot is too big to fold my overpair and if your plan is to check/call then you might as well bet yourself anyhow. He tanks for a very long time and finally folds. I asked in the chat what he had but unfortunately no answer 

      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $2(BB) Replayer Game#21378677268

      SB ($170)
      BB ($230)
      Hero ($203)
      UTG+1 ($346)
      CO ($210)
      BTN ($324)

      Dealt to Hero A:club: K:spade:

      Hero raises to $7, fold, fold, fold, call, fold,

      FLOP ($16) 7:heart: 2:diamond: 4:heart:

      check, Hero bets $12, SB calls $12,

      TURN ($40) 7:heart: 2:diamond: 4:heart: 4:diamond:

      check, check,

      RIVER ($40) 7:heart: 2:diamond: 4:heart: 4:diamond: Q:club:

      check, Hero bets $54, SB folds,

      Hero shows A:club: K:spade:

      Hero wins $38.05
      Nothing really interesting until the river. Villain likely has some showdownvalue but after he checks it 3 times to us he probably isn’t very strong. The Q is kind of a scare card and since there’s no history, I decide to go for an overbet. This makes it very expensive for him to call down and creates a lot more fold equity. I would do this with a Q as well and he has to fear that he’s beat since overbets are so “in” these days with a strong hand on the river. It requires that you have no extensive history with Villain though: if he sees you doing it multiple times he might think about calling, but since that wasn’t the case and Villain is readless on me (therefore, doesn’t know with which hands I’m doing this with), I think it’s a good play. Credits to Tribun for this one, he came up with this.

      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $2(BB) Replayer Game#21380272099

      Hero ($369)
      BB ($200)
      UTG ($203)
      UTG+1 ($253)
      CO ($504)
      BTN ($203)

      Dealt to Hero A:heart: J:heart:

      fold, fold, CO raises to $6, fold, Hero raises to $22, fold, call,

      FLOP ($46) Q:heart: 9:club: 7:heart:

      Hero bets $33, CO calls $33,

      TURN ($112) Q:heart: 9:club: 7:heart: 3:spade:

      check, CO bets $62, Hero raises to $152, CO calls $90,

      RIVER ($416) Q:heart: 9:club: 7:heart: 3:spade: 8:diamond:

      check, CO bets $222, Hero folds,

      CO wins $413
      Final hand, which happened near the end of the session, was also interesting. Villain is 19/14/2 after 24k hands, opens up 25% from the CO. Therefore, this is a clear 3-bet with AJs. His fold to 3-bet is 57% so it’s not a really big surprise that he calls. Flop gives us nutflushdraw and one overcard, so we make a standard contibet. There’s also the possibility to check/raise because we are 185BB deep, but since this looks too much like the exact hand that I have, namely a draw, I decide to go for the standard cbet. He calls, turn bricks off. At that point he could be on a pure float, AQ, a rarely slowplayed KK-AA (think those would’ve 4-betted preflop because of the stacks), or 77-QQ. The hands with some showdownvalue will most likely check back on the turn, giving us a free card to hit our 12-outer. The floats and KK-AA will probably bet, most likely AQ will bet as well. But check/calling for our draw kind of sucks because we are OOP if we hit and might not get paid off, and an A might or might not be good for us. Therefore, based on handreading, a check/raise would be better than a second barrel because he will fold all floats and perhaps even a hand like KK-AA thinking I hit a set of Q’s. On the other hand, this makes the potsize on the river somewhat awkward relative to the stacksizes. As we see on the river after he calls, we can’t really bluff because our stack is too small, and after he calls the turn he is committing himself anyway. It sucks but there’s really no other option but to check/fold.

      All in all, due to the last hand, I was down 50$, not a whole lot, just standard variance I guess. I think I played pretty well and hopefully you guys will be back next week. Thanks Tribun for an informative addition to the coaching.
  • 19 replies
    • TribunCaesar
      TribunCaesar
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.04.2007 Posts: 13,264
      Yep, it was a pretty interesting coaching I think. You guys should work through these hands, there is a lot instructional value.

      TribunCaesar
    • chenny8888
      chenny8888
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.10.2007 Posts: 19,324
      interesting hands and analyses. any extra comments on the betsizing in the final hand for the turn check/raise? I think it's too low. i think very often opponent shows up with a worse fd here if we bet so low.
    • Timor83
      Timor83
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.06.2007 Posts: 2,793
      If we raise more this really sucks if he decides to call us, because if we raise to, let's say 190$, the pot will be 492$ and we have 115$ left. If we do that we might as well just push because leaving ourselves behind with so little money doesn't really get us a lot of value if we hit and we are forced to give up an even larger pot if we miss. On top of that, he is mostly (if not always) calling and folding with the same hands. He could have a flushdraw but after we c/r turn that is a really small part of his range because he has to suspect by our line that his flushdraw is no good. His range here is far more skewed towards made hands and floats so we are going after those.
    • TribunCaesar
      TribunCaesar
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.04.2007 Posts: 13,264
      Coaching Review 28.10.2008

      We had a lot of nice spots in this coaching. Unfortunately I wasn't really running good 2,5 stacks down in the end. There where a lot of discussions going on about this hand:
      $1/$2 No Limit Holdem
      6 players
      Converted at weaktight.com

      Stacks:
      UTG Lucky_WIns ($488.65)
      UTG+1 PAULUR ($200.00)
      CO Surf1265/2 ($329.75)
      BTN Hero ($344.30)
      SB drexle ($225.20)
      BB lauracecilie ($268.10)

      Pre-flop: ($3, 6 players) Hero is BTN K:spade: A:club:
      1 fold, PAULUR raises to $6, 1 fold, Hero raises to $18, 2 folds, PAULUR calls $12

      Flop: 2:club: 5:heart: 2:heart: ($39, 2 players)
      PAULUR checks, Hero checks

      Turn: T:club: ($39, 2 players)
      PAULUR checks, Hero bets $31, PAULUR raises to $68, Hero calls $37

      River: 8:spade: ($175, 2 players)
      PAULUR goes all-in $114, Hero calls $114

      PAULUR wins $400 ( won +$200 )
      Hero lost -$200.00

      Villain: standard tag
      History: I 3betted him quite frequently. He started to adjust by calling more, but he folded a lot to cbets. Once he 4betted me and I shoved with JJ - he folded.

      I will not tell you why I played the hand that way. I want you to discuss about it and I'll tell you my reasons later.
      What do you think he plays that way?
    • matkov
      matkov
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.11.2007 Posts: 202
      did he flopped a full house? Or maybe he had Ah8h and did that turn check raise counting you know about baluga theorem and you would fold? :D :D
    • RGLFC1
      RGLFC1
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.10.2008 Posts: 49
      The only hands I can give him are overpair, AT, 55 or TT, TT being far more likely. I would doubt it was an overpair as you say he is a standard TAG and you would expect him to protect his hand on the flop if he had an overpair, but he might have tried to get a bit tricky for this hand. There is a small chance of 55/AT but again not likely because he was in early position and I wouldnt expect a TAG to open raise from EP (or call a reraise) with 55/AT.

      Anyway, my guess is TT

      oh small chance of pocket quakers as well (thats 22 btw)
    • xylere
      xylere
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2007 Posts: 2,939
      he is a standard TAG and you would expect him to protect his hand on the flop if he had an overpair

      protect how?) he is oop. he might wanted to c/r, but we don't know it

      well, my thoughts:

      JJ+ is def. out of his range, might be the case for TT as well
      anyway, i think his range is very polarized, its either FH or semi-bluff
      there are only 6 combos that make FH - 55/TT. 55 is likely out of his range and TT is not always there as well. So he will have semi-bluff 25x more often then the nuts)
    • TribunCaesar
      TribunCaesar
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.04.2007 Posts: 13,264
      Xylere is completely right. He is never playing a mediocre hand like that. He either has a (semi-)bluff or a boat. Due to the history we had I thought he would adjust and would use this spot as a bluff spot. Well unfortunately he had the nutz with 55. He was just too straight forward I think. Against an aggressive good tag I'd play this hand again the same way.
    • RGLFC1
      RGLFC1
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.10.2008 Posts: 49
      Im quite happy with that. When I wrote my analysis I first wrote 55 is far more likely. At first view I thought this, but I went over it again and decided a standard TAG might not raise from EP with a small pocket, therefore I favoured TT/AT, but ye, I could have him on any of those hands, I would certainly have folded AK there anyways.

      @xylere: by protect his hand I mean, with an over I would expect him reraise again on the flop to protect against the flush draw, hands like Ah Kh and worse. The fact that he just called the reraise, I think, puts that out of his range.
    • chenny8888
      chenny8888
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.10.2007 Posts: 19,324
      I don't think AT would check/raise that turn. it turns the hand effectively into a bluff. but given his turn betsizing i think i could call the turn and fold the river, or fold the turn directly as it looks more like a valueraise than a semibluff... I don't know whether i'm reading too much into that though
    • Timor83
      Timor83
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.06.2007 Posts: 2,793
      Not a really good session, down 2 bi's, but not really a lot of interesting spots.
      This hand is pretty interesting though, must be one of the rare occasions where I fold AKs preflop.


      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $2(BB) Replayer Game#21758263252

      Hero ($233)
      BB ($244)
      UTG ($211)
      UTG+1 ($154)
      CO ($185)
      BTN ($200)

      Dealt to Hero K:heart: A:heart:

      UTG raises to $7.10, call, fold, fold, Hero raises to $25, call, UTG raises to $60.60, fold, fold, BB raises to $244, call,

      FLOP ($454) 3:heart: 6:club: J:heart:



      TURN ($454) 3:heart: 6:club: J:heart: 6:spade:



      RIVER ($454) 3:heart: 6:club: J:heart: 6:spade: 4:heart:



      UTG shows A:club: A:spade:
      (Flop 91.8%, Turn 100.0%)

      BB shows K:club: Q:heart:
      (Flop 8.2%, Turn 0.0%)

      UTG wins $451

      Nevermind the small 3-bet, didn't notice the first caller. So Villain is a 20/17, opens 13% UTG. After me reraising him out of the blinds, he knows I'm not doing this lightly. For him to 4-bet there with the BB overcalling (pretty unknown at the time but probably a fish based on first impressions), he has a range of AK and QQ+. Since I'm not really faring all that well against that range, and flatting the 4-bet OOP isn't really great with AK, I elected just to fold and wait for a better spot. Needless to say that eventually I would've won with my flush against his AA, but whatever :)
    • kukkiwonBG
      kukkiwonBG
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.07.2008 Posts: 4,494
      BB is very nice opponent
    • chenny8888
      chenny8888
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.10.2007 Posts: 19,324
      I think UTG's range there is closer to KK+ than QQ+ AK
    • TribunCaesar
      TribunCaesar
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.04.2007 Posts: 13,264
      Well, it wasn't a very exciting session. A lot of small pots without any big action. The tables seem to be pretty aggressive and so was I. A lot of restealing situations and such stuff.

      $1/$2 No Limit Holdem
      6 players
      Converted at weaktight.com

      Stacks:
      UTG Hero ($231.15)
      UTG+1 xxWLFxx ($59.35)
      CO sihuynh ($200.00)
      BTN drdnyc ($198.95)
      SB mischa ($391.35)
      BB aftajvila ($200.00)

      Pre-flop: ($3, 6 players) Hero is UTG J:spade: A:diamond:
      Hero raises to $7, xxWLFxx calls $7, 4 folds

      Flop: 5:club: 7:diamond: 5:heart: ($17, 2 players)
      Hero bets $11, xxWLFxx calls $11

      Turn: 7:heart: ($39, 2 players)
      Hero checks, xxWLFxx goes all-in $41.35, Hero calls $41.35

      River: 3:spade: ($121.70, 2 players)

      Final Pot: $121.70
      Hero shows: J:spade: A:diamond:
      xxWLFxx shows: 3:club: 3:diamond:

      xxWLFxx wins $118.70 ( won +$59.35 )
      Hero lost -$59.35

      Villains was a fish who played something like 41/21. He was always calling the flop bet. I decided to c/c the turn because this way I give him the chance to push his air type hands. We could also shove ourselves, but we fold out many hands we actually have beat.

      What do you think about this hand?

      $1/$2 No Limit Holdem
      5 players
      Converted at weaktight.com

      Stacks:
      UTG kosista ($232.35)
      CO Aros888 ($490.25)
      BTN Hero ($199.00)
      SB dikkekop ($214.45)
      BB dng_ps ($194.05)

      Pre-flop: ($3, 5 players) Hero is BTN T:club: Q:club:
      kosista raises to $7, 1 fold, Hero calls $7, 2 folds

      Flop: 2:heart: 2:spade: 7:heart: ($17, 2 players)
      kosista bets $12, Hero raises to $32, kosista calls $20

      Turn: J:diamond: ($81, 2 players)
      kosista checks, Hero bets $41, kosista folds

      Final Pot: $81

      Hero wins $120 ( won +$40 )
      kosista lost -$39.00


      Another interesting hand. Please tell my what you think about it. I will post later why I played it that way and what was my thought process.


      TribunCaesar
    • TribunCaesar
      TribunCaesar
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.04.2007 Posts: 13,264
      Ok, today we had a pretty decent session and a couple of nice spots.

      $1/$2 No Limit Holdem
      6 players
      Converted at weaktight.com

      Stacks:
      UTG Weak Tite ($47.55)
      UTG+1 Hero ($200.00)
      CO Stu_Hunger ($217.90)
      BTN midin ($413.80)
      SB huckpp ($201.00)
      BB palakjj ($691.85)

      Pre-flop: ($3, 6 players) Hero is UTG+1 T:heart: J:heart:
      1 fold, Hero raises to $7, 1 fold, midin calls $7, huckpp calls $6, 1 fold

      Flop: 8:club: 9:heart: 5:spade: ($23, 3 players)
      huckpp checks, Hero bets $14, midin folds, huckpp raises to $42, Hero calls $28

      Turn: Q:spade: ($107, 2 players)
      huckpp bets $60, Hero calls $60

      River: 4:diamond: ($227, 2 players)
      huckpp bets $92, Hero calls $91

      Final Pot: $410
      huckpp shows: 8:heart: 8:spade:
      Hero shows: T:heart: J:heart:

      huckpp wins $1 ( lost -$200 )
      Hero wins $406 ( won +$206 )
      midin lost -$7.00


      Villain:19/15 standard tag

      As he raised on the flop we can put him on a pretty tight range. He will never bluff me on this board in a 3 way pot. He will always habe 2pair or better ( mostly sets), therefore we have very good implieds. As he raised rather small then big we got pretty good odds as well. The plan was to call just this street and give up unimproved to a normal bet on the turn.
      Fortunately we got there and the rest is rather standard.

      $1/$2 No Limit Holdem
      6 players
      Converted at weaktight.com

      Stacks:
      UTG tuco1979 ($214.95)
      UTG+1 Hero ($210.95)
      CO Tondermann ($324.85)
      BTN DjuNKeLL ($223.30)
      SB bulbiza ($142.05)
      BB LiquidEsence ($95.40)

      Pre-flop: ($3, 6 players) Hero is UTG+1 A:spade: Q:club:
      1 fold, Hero raises to $7, Tondermann calls $7, 2 folds, LiquidEsence calls $5

      Flop: 5:spade: 9:club: A:heart: ($22, 3 players)
      LiquidEsence checks, Hero bets $14, Tondermann folds, LiquidEsence calls $14

      Turn: 6:diamond: ($50, 2 players)
      LiquidEsence checks, Hero bets $29, LiquidEsence calls $29

      River: J:heart: ($108, 2 players)
      LiquidEsence checks, Hero bets $46, LiquidEsence calls $45.40

      Final Pot: $199.40
      Hero shows: A:spade: Q:club:
      LiquidEsence shows: 7:diamond: A:diamond:

      Hero wins $196.40 ( won +$100.40 )
      Tondermann lost -$7.00
      LiquidEsence lost -$95.40

      This hand is all about bet sizing. The oppoennt is a fish and we want maximum value from worse aces, therefore we split his rest stack into 2 barrels for turn and river to suck him in.
    • carebax
      carebax
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.03.2007 Posts: 73
      At 1st hand:
      - given read: would u fold river if board paired?
      - let's say we have overpair (AA/KK): what's our line?
      1) call turn, fold/vb/cbh river
      2) call turn, call river
      3) fold turn (dont see a point in calling flopraise then obv)
    • TribunCaesar
      TribunCaesar
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.04.2007 Posts: 13,264
      We had a nother session full of action and interesting hands.

      This one is probably interesting ^^

      $1/$2 No Limit Holdem
      6 players
      Converted at weaktight.com

      Stacks:
      UTG 1Bunn ($30.00)
      UTG+1 glissario ($207.25)
      CO Seinedsofaul ($37.00)
      BTN TerentinoTS ($118.75)
      SB tomaso_13 ($317.15)
      BB Hero ($230.55)

      Pre-flop: ($3, 6 players) Hero is BB T:spade: Q:spade:
      4 folds, tomaso_13 raises to $6, Hero calls $4

      Flop: 7:club: J:spade: K:diamond: ($12, 2 players)
      tomaso_13 bets $8, Hero calls $8

      Turn: 8:diamond: ($28, 2 players)
      tomaso_13 checks, Hero bets $21, tomaso_13 calls $21

      River: A:club: ($70, 2 players)
      tomaso_13 checks, Hero bets $58, tomaso_13 raises to $282.15, Hero calls $137.55

      Final Pot: $547.70
      tomaso_13 shows: 9:diamond: Q:club:
      Hero shows: T:spade: Q:spade:

      tomaso_13 wins $86.60 ( lost -$230.55 )
      Hero wins $458.10 ( won +$227.55 )


      Villain is a tag who raises to muc out of the SB and didn't adjust to my 3bets or my coldcalls. I could raise the flop here and take the pot away right there but I don't want to go broke on the flop in case he has a hand and I can bluff on later streets if I want to. Because I would bet nearly my whole range on the turn I also bet in this case. On the river it's just a quastion of bet sizing. I wanted to look like either a good hand or a bluff by betting big. Obv he was convinced that I have a bluff, so he rebluffed me. Well, he completely misplayed that hand. I still don't know why he c/c the turn. ^^



      $1/$2 No Limit Holdem
      6 players
      Converted at weaktight.com

      Stacks:
      UTG dac11 ($274.50)
      UTG+1 Lucky_WIns ($400.00)
      CO Botylp ($209.15)
      BTN kelvinkalvus ($290.35)
      SB hoogkarspel ($39.55)
      BB Hero ($208.00)

      Pre-flop: ($3, 6 players) Hero is BB 9:diamond: 9:club:
      3 folds, kelvinkalvus raises to $7, 1 fold, Hero raises to $23, kelvinkalvus calls $16

      Flop: 7:diamond: J:club: J:spade: ($47, 2 players)
      Hero bets $28, kelvinkalvus raises to $56, Hero raises to $185, kelvinkalvus calls $129

      Turn: Q:club: ($417, 2 players)

      River: 8:diamond: ($417, 2 players)

      Final Pot: $417
      kelvinkalvus shows: K:spade: K:diamond:
      Hero shows: 9:diamond: 9:club:

      kelvinkalvus wins $414 ( won +$206 )
      Hero lost -$208


      Villain was kinda laggy. In this hand I really thought he would bluff minraise the flop, which is a pretty common move. Now I could call the minraise in order to let him bluff again. But in this case I decided that I want to protect against the 6 possible outs, because he might check behind on the turn and gets 2 cards for free that way. Well, unfortunately I was wrong. happens ^^
    • TribunCaesar
      TribunCaesar
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.04.2007 Posts: 13,264
      Originally posted by carebax
      At 1st hand:
      - given read: would u fold river if board paired?
      - let's say we have overpair (AA/KK): what's our line?
      1) call turn, fold/vb/cbh river
      2) call turn, call river
      3) fold turn (dont see a point in calling flopraise then obv)
      I can't fold on the river, the pot is just too big, and he might have just a 2 pair. I would fold my overpairs right on the flop against this guy.
    • Balanarm
      Balanarm
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.07.2008 Posts: 17,163
      I would definotely 2nd barrel in the 1st hand, since if he check-raises us then we are behind almost always, and by betting not too big we get vaalue from many worse hands, many draws(flush, straight, pair+), just don't bet too big to give him too bad odds! Definitely bet!