a weird question about live poker

    • bnapalm
      bnapalm
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.10.2008 Posts: 17
      so, I was playing poker online, "enjoying" yet another minor downswing, and this suddenly popped into my mind - when someone is playing live poker (it couldn't work in online poker since things are automated there), on the showdown people can muck their hand if it has lost.. but what about if it hasn't?
      what I mean is this - can a person muck his hand if he is the first one to show it, even if he has the nuts? or if another person has already shown a hand, and his hand is better..

      this is, of course, a silly idea, which just popped into my head and made me curious. although, silly as it might be, I can think of a very rare situation where it could be worth it - if the pot is very small and you are trying to keep a specific table image. For example, let's imagine your table image so far is very tight - as far as others know, you have only played AA, KK, QQ, for example (this is just a hypothetical situation). So, when people have become used to that, you try to sneak in bluffs, and in one of those bluffs, you raise pre-flop with a bad hand, like 26o and hit a straight. At showdown an opponent shows KKK, but the pot is very small. You have the winning hand but the pot is very small. So if you show your straight, you will win the small pot, but others will see your bluff.. So you could muck your hand to keep your table image for future bluffs..

      Of course, this would be a very rare situation (since you would very rarely raise with 26o, even as a bluff), but I'm just curious :) so, do the poker rules allow this? both the mucking a winning hand, and folding when you are the first one to show a hand?
  • 7 replies
    • alejandrosh
      alejandrosh
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.07.2008 Posts: 4,346
      well you can do it, i saw that actually in a big pot some idiot chasing the gutshot with JT on a 3:club: board then hits it, shows the hand and mucks it he said later he didn't know he had hit the nut straight on the river (i guess he was chasing the T high flush draw then :D ) . Another interesting muck was when other guy gave the cards to the dealer face down thinking the dealer would turn them up and read the board .... tell him he won and gave him the pot, instead the dealer mucked the cards :rolleyes:
    • Ellfish
      Ellfish
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.01.2008 Posts: 23
      If you want to have a tight image you still want the other players to know you are capable of playing worse cards. Otherwise they will never call your raises unless they know they have a better hand than your tight range.
    • hammiemon85
      hammiemon85
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.09.2008 Posts: 116
      of course you can muck your winning hands, nobody know that its winning except when you show it. So technically, it doesn't win until you show it, or somebody surrenders to you.
    • PocketAcesJohn
      PocketAcesJohn
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.06.2008 Posts: 1,116
      If everybody folds you can muck it,
      but if it goes to showdown and you have to show your hand if you have the
      best hand, otherwise you could sit there saying you have the best hand all day long.
    • Puciek
      Puciek
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.01.2008 Posts: 657
      Well it's a bit different especialy on stars where in theory you don't show your hand in showdown if you've lost but if you check in instahand history, ppl who were in the hand can look what you got. As pokerstars support explained that to me:

      "The proper rules of poker are that when the last bet has been called,
      players are to display their hands in order starting with the last
      raiser and proceeding to the last caller. All hands are to be shown.

      Over time, it has become accepted practice for players whose hands
      cannot beat the best hand thus far showing to simply muck. However,
      as in most all card rooms, a player that pays the last bet has "paid
      to see your cards".

      In a brick and mortar cardroom, any player may say to the dealer, "I
      want to see his cards"... and if those cards paid the last bet, they
      must be displayed. On PokerStars, "I want to see those cards" is done
      in the form of requesting the hand history. Only the cards of the
      players who called the last bet will be revealed -- if you fold facing
      a bet, your cards remain unknown to everyone. Such information will
      be revealed only to a player dealt into the game. If an observer
      requests that hand history, they will not see such information.

      Therefore, the presence of mucked hole cards from showdowns is in
      accordance with the generally accepted principles of poker.

      This information is also available to players who have activated
      the "Instant Hand History" and in the "Hand Replayer". But remember,
      they will only see your cards if you reached the showdown, and only if
      they were dealt into the hand.

      I hope this has answered your question completely. Please do not
      hesitate to let us know any time you need anything."

      But fi you have won, you must show, if you want to hide it, then fold it on the river.
    • RGLFC1
      RGLFC1
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.10.2008 Posts: 49
      There is always confusion with this rule in live games, especially with the pub leagues that are now running across the UK. In the game I play regularly the rule is "the opponent has to ask to see the losing players cards at showdown."
      This is strange because we play an MTT and all MTT's I have ever watched or played in (apart from this league) have been that "the cards are on their backs at showdown". You dont even have a choice if there is a proper dealer he will flip them, even if you try to muck them. To be fair, it would fine if everyone asked to see cards but they dont, this costs other players information.
      Now the last example is ring games at casino's in the UK. The rule here is that a player can muck his cards if he wishes, stupid I know, but not as stupid as the reason I was given.... "beacause this is a CASH game". Now I will point out that this was Napoleons casino's and the actual dealers do not deal for cashgames, instead its usually compulsive gamblers that are regulars come over for the "rake" and deal, so they may be wrong.

      This rule sure does cause confusion, and really pi$$es me off sometimes :P
    • AquamanBT
      AquamanBT
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.07.2008 Posts: 338
      I was once playing in a pub league and I had just seen a video of Annette_15 winning a sng playing blind. I decided to give it a try, playing live without looking at my cards once.

      It went well until a short stack went all in from the SB position with two limpers; the raise was only 2bb and I was the BB. Just for pot odds I had to call with any two cards (remember I haven't seen mine).

      Everyone checked down to the river and the pot showed 4 clubs. The short stack shows J high. I discreetly look at my cards for the first time, see that I don't have clubs and 8 high, so mucked. No one else had clubs and J high won.

      The funny thing is that when I looked carefully at the board I had just mucked a straight!