trash hand

    • DodoGlass
      DodoGlass
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.10.2008 Posts: 11
      hi..I have one question.

      SSS says :

      Trash Hand:
      Check/Fold
      Exception 1 – You raised pre-flop and only 1 opponent:
      o bet 2/3 of the pot.
      o If your opponent raises, calls or already bet before you => Fold
      Exception 2You raised pre-flop and your stack is < 1/2 of the pot:
      o You push all-in in any case.


      I wlould like to ask you about the second exception.
      lets say, that i raised pre-flop, and I have a trash hand. in the pot is 3$ and I have 2$ left what is more than 1/2 of the pot so I should fold. But one of my opponet is going first, and he is betting 4$, so now is in the pot 7$ what is more than 1/2 of my stack, so should i go allin?

      so we also could my question form like this. Should I consider into playing the pot after flop, or pot also with bets of players who bet after flop in front of me.

      Thanks a lot!!!!!
  • 5 replies
    • PocketAcesJohn
      PocketAcesJohn
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.06.2008 Posts: 1,116
      are you a tournement player or cash game player?

      if your a cash game player then no you shouldnt! its all about EV in cash
      games...every bet lost or one comes straight out or into your BR!

      I would imagine in a tournement though it may be the case...but ofcourse
      i would wait for somone whos experienced at tournements to give there take.

      But as i said you deffinatly shouldnt be going all in with trash in cash games...unless your at my table! ;-)
    • Gerv
      Gerv
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      Hi DoDoGlass,

      The exception 2 is applied as follows:
      You have a 8bb stack left in a 15bb pot.
      Now your opponent donkbets you all-in (8bb).
      The total pot to win is 23bb and you have to invest 8bb to win 23.
      That makes
      23:8
      =
      2.875:1 which is in percentages: (1/3.875)=25%

      So you only have to win 25% of these cases to be profitable. Now if you play basic SSS, you mostly have 2 overcards as a trashhand or a PocketPair (JJ) with a flop like K 3 7.

      Now in both examples, you have more % winning chances than the actual 25% you need to be break-even.

      Therefore I can conclude that this Exception 2 is a profitable situation even if your opponents (In a heads-up pot) bets in front of you (donkbet).

      I hope it makes sense, if not please reply

      - Gerv
    • DodoGlass
      DodoGlass
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.10.2008 Posts: 11
      Thanks. It gives me a sense, but for sure, tell me please if I am right

      I play NL10 so BB is 0.10$

      I had AK so I raised 0.7$ (4xBB+3xBB for 3 limpers)...one of them called my raise, the others folded. so the pot is now 1.6$ and I have 1.2$ left (at this moment my stack is more than 1/2 of the pot.) after flop there was only one oponent, and he went all in in front of me 9$....so I needed to invest all my 1.2$ to win 2.8$ (1.6$+1.2$)and that makes 2.8:1.2=2.333 in percentages 43% (1/2.33)

      I dont think that I can win more than 43% of these situations, becouse there is a big chance that he is holding K becouse he went allin after flop (or can I?) so should I fold?


      And in your case, isnt there mistake?

      "2.875:1 which is in percentages: (1/3.875)=25%"
      2.875:1 which is in percentages: (1/2.875)=35%

      and do you thnik that you have with PocketPair (JJ) more %winning than 35% ? when the flop is K 3 7 ? there is again big chance that oponent is holdin K because he was so agressive after flop, or not? and if there is more than one oponent, my chances are even lower, so when is more oponents should I fold without thinking?

      Thanks a lot for answer!
    • louc
      louc
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.05.2007 Posts: 42
      Originally posted by DodoGlass
      so I needed to invest all my 1.2$ to win 2.8$ (1.6$+1.2$)and that makes 2.8:1.2=2.333 in percentages 43% (1/2.33)
      Suppose 43% is indeed breakeven %. So you are winning 2.8$ in 43% and losing 1.2$ in 57% or mathematicaly speaking:

      2.8$ * 43% - 1.2$ * 57% = 0,52$ >> 0$

      If 43% was breakeven % the result of equation should be 0$. The real breakeven % p is:
      2.8$ * p - 1.2$ * (1 - p) = 0$
      p = 0,3 (30%)

      So 2.8:1.2 is not 1.2/2.8 (or 1/2.33 which really is the same thing) rather it is 1.2/(2.8 + 1.2) = 1.2/4 = 0.3. The same really goes with 2.875:1 which is 1/(2.875 + 1) and therefore there is no mistake in Gerv's post.

      As for your other questions, I'm afraid I can't answer you, because I never really get into SSS.
    • Gerv
      Gerv
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      If he donkbets you on the flop with K/A high board and you got QQ or lower, its a normal and good fold. It is about Iniative as well!

      Note him down and if he does this again and again, at one point, you should shove it once an see what he got