Nash pushes in micro stakes

    • LtoC
      LtoC
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.08.2007 Posts: 800
      Hello!
      After a long break, I'm getting back at it. In order to get up to speed and re-learn the game quicker, I'm watching tons of videos, and one coach caught my attention: Collin Moshman.

      In this video, he open-shoves with Nash ranges, which seems very loose to me against the loose passive players that populate micro-stakes. What is the general consensus on this? Or is there so many TAG players there now that it's profitable?

      To be honest, it suits my style quite well but I have always tried to restrain me in micro-stakes, so if it's advised now, I'd be glad to go ahead and shove like a maniac...
  • 4 replies
    • metza
      metza
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.01.2012 Posts: 2,220
      Originally posted by LtoC
      Hello!
      After a long break, I'm getting back at it. In order to get up to speed and re-learn the game quicker, I'm watching tons of videos, and one coach caught my attention: Collin Moshman.

      In this video, he open-shoves with Nash ranges, which seems very loose to me against the loose passive players that populate micro-stakes. What is the general consensus on this? Or is there so many TAG players there now that it's profitable?
      Unless I'm mistaken (which I may be as I am a 6max cash game player) the whole point of a nash shove is that is going to be profitable (even if only by the tiniest fraction) no matter what your opponent does. So if its profitable, why wouldn't you do it?

      Also, a lot of the loose passive guys love to call preflop raises, and call down if they catch a piece of the board, BUT the guys who will call an all-in where if they lose they are out, are somewhat rarer. There are a ton of nitty microplayers also who will just wait for AQ+,88+ to call it off regardless of position. I once shoved 7bb on the BTN w KJo and a guy folded AJo in the bb and showed it to me. :f_biggrin:
    • LtoC
      LtoC
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.08.2007 Posts: 800
      So you would recommand playing NASH ranges in micro stakes. I guess if we go that way we should probably playing with stats, right?
    • PerusJamppa
      PerusJamppa
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.01.2008 Posts: 2,714
      I also don't know a crap about Nash ranges, but i've understand that Nash works best when our opponent plays with that chart also? So if villain differs from that chart, we need to adjust also? For example, if we know that villain will shove 25bb deep only AQ+/TT+/KQ we just can't look at the chart and call with any hand recommened to call if 20bb+ deep.

      Also if we know that he'll call with more tighter(lighter?) range than in chart, as far as i understand, we can shove even a bit more lighter(tighter).

      So imo Nash ranges should work just fine when you're the one who shoves, but what cames to the calling, i would be more carefully because in micros many players will shove with way more tighter range than they should.
    • metza
      metza
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.01.2012 Posts: 2,220
      Originally posted by PerusJamppa
      I also don't know a crap about Nash ranges, but i've understand that Nash works best when our opponent plays with that chart also? So if villain differs from that chart, we need to adjust also? For example, if we know that villain will shove 25bb deep only AQ+/TT+/KQ we just can't look at the chart and call with any hand recommened to call if 20bb+ deep.

      Also if we know that he'll call with more tighter(lighter?) range than in chart, as far as i understand, we can shove even a bit more lighter(tighter).

      So imo Nash ranges should work just fine when you're the one who shoves, but what cames to the calling, i would be more carefully because in micros many players will shove with way more tighter range than they should.
      No I believe this is not correct. From what I know Nash does not work best when opponent plays with that chart. Nash is balanced when opponent plays with the same chart. So both players EV is 0. If opponent deviates from Nash Equilibrium, he is now losing, because the whole point of a Nash Equilibrium is it is a point reached where people cannot improve their EV by deviating from strategy. So, if he goes tighter he is losing too much by folding his blinds too much and if he goes looser then he is calling to many bad hands and having poor equity.

      What you are talking about is exploitative poker. In nash, both players or bots are complete masters of the game and only deviate when higher EV, after deviating, they find equilibrium where they cannot deviate and must stay. In micro loldonkaments there are many guys playing what is not even close to optimal poker, some of them dont even have a strategy really and are just playing by whim. So, now because they are not playing nash, deviations are now possible that increase EV. this is exploitative play when you increase ev by deviating to get the most EV from villians mistakes. Certain spots like when it folds to you in the SB you can jam far wider than nash because this is a spot where micro guys hate calling it off with average hands even if they knew you were shoving 100% of the time they wouldn't be happy to call stuff like A2o vs u. In fact there are many nits vs whom often jamming 100% bvb is a good idea at certain bb stack size.

      As for calling nash, we can make deviation vs tight ranges to fold hands that would usually be a call, and vs guy who goes all in every hand we can call looser, so we shouldn't call nash ranges at microstakes imo even if villain is unknown we should call tighter than nash since overall micro population tendency is to fold too much and not jam enough. if we call nash all we do is stop opponent from exploiting us by shoving to wide. if this is not a real threat then we dont need to defend as wide as nash suggests.