Defend vs 3bet from midstacker

    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,530
      Hi,

      how do we defend vs 3bet BU vs Blinds
      where 3bet is 10%. I open raise 2bb he 3bets 6bb and is
      a) shortstacker 10-25 BB
      b) midstacker 26 - 50 bb stack

      I open raise 50% BU. Find it hard to defend unexploitable
      Because i cant 4bet/f mostly commited and calls with
      Suited hands doesnt have enough of implodes.

      I read all midstack articles on this website, but there is only one example how to defend vs 3bet where in example hand is KK and AK which is straightforward, but nothing about defend ranges vs 3bet.

      1) I think, we could calculate equity of our hand vs villain defend vs shove range, and then look if it is +EV. So in order to make it general, we can take GTO fold vs shove for midstack, and then find all hands in our range that can shove +EV?

      2) Would it be possible to 4bet min and fold, when and what is the lower threshold for stack size?
  • 11 replies
    • lnternet
      lnternet
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.06.2012 Posts: 782
      If you know your opponents 3bet percentage, you should not aim to defend unexploitably. You should aim to defend maximally exploitive against that 3bet percentage.

      Against 10% 3bet from each blind you can open raise 80%-100% of all hands.

      When you do get 3bet, it's not super clear cut, but 2bb to 6bb you continue about top 20% of hands at reasonable stacks like 25bb-100bb. Although vs 10bb stack it's still very different than 15bb or 25bb stack.

      1) Calc your shove EV for all hands, that's a good start.
      2) About 33% of effective stack max, so from 6bb a min4bet is 10bb, so it must be at least 30bb stack. But 10bb of 30bb is cutting is super thin, so normally no 4bet/folds until at least 35bb deep.
    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,530
      Originally posted by lnternet
      If you know your opponents 3bet percentage, you should not aim to defend unexploitably. You should aim to defend maximally exploitive against that 3bet percentage.

      Hi,
      Thanks for the answer.
      Until now I was defending around 42% vs agro 3bettor to disallow him to exploit me. If he would fold vs 4bet too much, I would 4bet bluff heavy, but still I wouldn't defend more than 42%.
      Do you know some video which explains good this stuff, or something to read?
    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,530

      Against 10% 3bet from each blind you can open raise 80%-100% of all hands.


      1) I guess the reason for opening so wide, is that at least one opponent will 3bet us 0.9*0.9 = 0.81 (81%) of time, which means most of the time we will play IP with initiative vs weak range, and if villian folds blinds too much we will profit from stealing, if he calls too much we will profit postflop, right?

      2) Now since I don't understand fully the reasons for opening so wide, can you please say what would be a lower threshold for 3bet % for both of them where you start open raising so wide?

      3) If he is too agro, what is the threshold for being too agro? I would exploit that
      with 4betting more (extending value range), and calling more with plan to attack more flop with raise, float, is that ok?

      4) Would you still open wide from SB where we play OOP if he 3bets 10%?
    • MikkRB
      MikkRB
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.06.2012 Posts: 8
      Hi
      If it is too agro why not thighten up your range and flat more premiums?
    • MikkRB
      MikkRB
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.06.2012 Posts: 8
      I ment if its polarized keep its weak range in.
    • MikkRB
      MikkRB
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.06.2012 Posts: 8
      sry for trolling a good thread
    • lnternet
      lnternet
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.06.2012 Posts: 782
      Originally posted by GingerKid
      Until now I was defending around 42% vs agro 3bettor to disallow him to exploit me.
      This depends very much which positional match up you are in, how much of your defends are 4bets, and how big the sizing involved is.

      If you are defending 42% to 3bets on the button, say calling 32% and 4betting 10%, and the sizing is 2bb open to 8bb 3bet, the blinds can likely 3bet 32o profitably.

      Originally posted by GingerKid
      If he would fold vs 4bet too much, I would 4bet bluff heavy, but still I wouldn't defend more than 42%.
      You can tweak your opening range, your opening size, your call range and your 4bet range (and 4bet size). You are using your 4bet range to adjust, that is good, but you should use all the other options as well when you can.
    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,530
      Originally posted by lnternet
      If you are defending 42% to 3bets on the button, say calling 32% and 4betting 10%, and the sizing is 2bb open to 8bb 3bet, the blinds can likely 3bet 32o profitably.
      1) SB 3bets 8BB vs 2BB open. he needs 7.5/11 = 68% FE.

      Average BB will help me in defending, so he will likely defend TT+, AQ at least, maybe even wider. So it is 4.6% at least. it means that BB will fold 95.4% vs 3bet from SB,
      so in order to let SB have 68% FE I need to fold:

      hero_fold * 0.954 = 0.68
      hero_fold = 0.71

      So I need to fold 71%, meaning to defend 29% (thank you BB). Then I defend around 10% more, because he has still equity postflop, and could always give up his bluffs if he doesnt hit nuts if I would be defending 29%. So I defend 13% extra here vs SB which unables him to autoprofit 23o

      2) BB 3bets 8bb vs 2bb open. he needs 7/10.5 = 66%

      Now noone is going to help me in defending, so I need to defend 34%, and if I add 10% it is 44% and I defend 42% to have same defend range vs SB and BB.

      So, how can he autoprofit with 23o ? Also, it is not that he is going to realize his equity OOP with so weak hands. Also, it is not that I am not going to notice that somebody 3bets vs me 100% range, if somebody really wants to do that.
    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,530

      say calling 32% and 4betting 10%
      How do you achive 10% 4bet? It looks too loose to me.

      If I want to 4bet/call TT+, AK thats 3.5%, and I need to defend 50% vs shove, so I can have 7% max 4bet range. So if you have 10% 4bet, means you 4bet/call 5%, otherwise you have leak.
      So you would have to do it with 99, AQ+, do you suggest that?

      I am not sure if such a 4bet range is ok, because then he has even more equity with his small PP bluffs, so we need to defend even more vs shove.
    • lnternet
      lnternet
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.06.2012 Posts: 782
      Originally posted by GingerKid
      So, how can he autoprofit with 23o ? Also, it is not that he is going to realize his equity OOP with so weak hands.
      This is the key point. 32o wins WAY more than $0 if you call the 3bet. By winning some of the pot postflop. Like if there is 16bb in the pot it's winning between 4bb and 8bb. You absolutely have to factor this into your defense.

      Originally posted by GingerKid
      How do you achive 10% 4bet? It looks too loose to me.
      This was 10% of your opening range. You may split your 42% defends into 32% call and 10% 4bets. Then those 32% / 10% are of your opening range.

      10% would be 99/AQ, yes, which is also ok, but on the loose side.
    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,530

      This is the key point. 32o wins WAY more than $0 if you call the 3bet. By winning some of the pot postflop. Like if there is 16bb in the pot it's winning between 4bb and 8bb. You absolutely have to factor this into your defense.
      Can you please explain this in more details?
      I understand that mathematically he always has equity, but having X% equity preflop doesnt mean he will really win X% hands in the long run when I call 3bet.

      With my defend range, his purely preflop EV is not positive, so he needs to make EV of postflop positive in order to make money with 23o. And I dont see how is that possible OOP.

      In matts book, he says 10% should be added to the defend range, why do you suggest more, can you please also explain that?