Coaching: Become unexPLOitable: 10 most common leaks

    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 09.07.2010 Posts: 10,507
      Become unexPLOitable: 10 most common leaks

      time: thursday 21:00 CET
      dates: 29.5.-26.6. 2014 (there is no coaching at 12th of June)
      status: silver+
      target group: micro plo players



      We all hate а running tap. But what if that tap is running your money? It's time to close that tap with Kyyberi!

      This course is comprised of four parts. Each week we will close that running tap with a set topics of common leaks in PLO. Eventually we will cover 10 most common leaks, and in the end your tap won't run anymore!

      Each week I will talk about 2-3 leaks, how to avoid them and most importantly how to exploit them!

      Interactive learning is better than just lecturing. To encourage interaction, I will reward one member EACH week with a status upgrade for a month! So get in and be active, and you can win the prize! Same member can't win more than one status upgrade. There is also a possibility to win a 40% discount for my private coaching!

      In 4 courses, I will go through the 10 most common leaks in micro-PLO. At the end of this course you will not only have learned about those leaks, but you will be able to eliminate them from your game, as well as spot and exPLOit them in your opponents.


      Week 1: Don't fall in love with your big hands! (aka: mistakes in hand value) Video can be seen in here.

      This week you will learn how to avoid overplaying big pocket pairs or dominated hands, why you shouldn't slowplay even the nuts and what does it mean "to turn made hand into a bluff".


      Week 2: Is math that important? (aka: mathematical leaks)

      This week you will learn the basic mathematics and why they are so important in PLO. These include equities, pot odds, betsizing and missing value.


      Week 3: I ain't scared! (aka: fears)

      This week you will learn about two common fears: being afraid of big pots and being afraid of being bluffed. You will see how these fears might affect your decision making and cost you money.


      Week 4: Bad regular or exceptional? (aka: mistakes of a reg)

      This week I will show you the most common reg leaks. Those are leveling wars, position and not making an effort to advance. Don't settle for mediocrity.


      Please post your thoughts about these leaks to this thread. You can include hand histories to your posts. If you have examples of above topics or some other thoughts, share them with the community. Remember that this thread is part of the status upgrade promotion!
  • 51 replies
    • MrTrocks
      MrTrocks
      Black
      Joined: 25.03.2006 Posts: 4,859
      i look forward to it, sounds good
    • kevsaf
      kevsaf
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.01.2009 Posts: 639
      Nice! I'm not a plo player, but I might try it out in the future.

      Need silver status before obv! :s_cool:
    • SeagalSteven
      SeagalSteven
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 504
      Nice!

      Will you be playing omaha, or is this coaching only theoretical-type? How long are these coachings, 1h, 1,5h? I remember you had similar tap-video series in Finnish time ago, this coaching is based on that series?

      BTW, seems like you MrTrocks have upgraded your status to Black, congrats! :D
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 09.07.2010 Posts: 10,507
      Originally posted by SeagalSteven
      Will you be playing omaha, or is this coaching only theoretical-type? How long are these coachings, 1h, 1,5h? I remember you had similar tap-video series in Finnish time ago, this coaching is based on that series?
      The main content is discussion and hand histories. Live playing doesn't necessarily support the topics. Skod has done a lot of live playing and we approach the game in somewhat similar manner, so there is not that much extra value in me playing. That's why I have created this course. And yes, it's based on the older FI series. Coachings are 1,5 hours each.

      Topic for the first week is:
      Week 1: Don't fall in love with your big hands! (aka: mistakes in hand value)

      This week you will learn how to avoid overplaying big pocket pairs and dominated hands, why you shouldn't slowplay even the nuts and what does it mean "to turn made hand into a bluff".

      Please post your thoughts to this thread. Do you have a hand history in mind that is an example of overplaying pocket pair, slowplaying stron hand or turning made hand into a bluff? Remember that there are no "wrong" answers, all opinions are welcome!
    • MrTrocks
      MrTrocks
      Black
      Joined: 25.03.2006 Posts: 4,859
      Originally posted by SeagalSteven
      BTW, seems like you MrTrocks have upgraded your status to Black, congrats! :D
      :D ty

      @Kyyberi: if my PT works again i will find some hands and post here
    • Gothicrow
      Gothicrow
      Gold
      Joined: 15.11.2010 Posts: 834
      Hi Kyyberi, these couchings sounds very interesting

      Probably an example of overplaying a pocket pair is this:

      The opponent has an overall 3bet of 12.4 in 1.3K hands so a 4bet with KK and other type of hands is good, but this KK are very crappy to do it in this spot where SPR on flop is going to be almost 2. Then flop sucks and hits all his 3bet/call range, but been so drawy I think I have to get it in, but I'm not nearly happy here. Overall the outcome is that I set a shitty spot with my preflop 4bet.

      Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Omaha Cash, 6 Players


      Hero (SB): $25 (100 bb)
      BB: $73.30 (293.2 bb)
      UTG: $22.14 (88.6 bb)
      MP: $4.49 (18 bb)
      CO: $33 (132 bb)
      BTN: $27.56 (110.2 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is SB with K:diamond: Q:diamond: 2:diamond: K:club:
      4 folds, Hero raises to $0.75, BB raises to $1.75, Hero raises to $5.25, BB calls $3.50

      Flop: ($10.50) 7:spade: 9:club: Q:club: (2 players)
      Hero bets $10.05, BB raises to $40.20, Hero calls $9.70 and is all-in


      Now about slowplaing, I think there are spots when do it is fine, but then the things can result complicated in later streets, put in ourselves into a guessing game as in this example:

      only 50 hands on opponent: 21/13 and no relevant reads about his aggresion

      I think I slowplay here because I didn't give him to many low roundowns in his range and not many 55 or 22 , but the turn and river cards and his bets made me doubt.

      Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Omaha Cash, 6 Players


      SB: $32.65 (130.6 bb)
      BB: $44.88 (179.5 bb)
      Hero (UTG): $25.99 (104 bb)
      MP: $24.79 (99.2 bb)
      CO: $31.82 (127.3 bb)
      BTN: $30.08 (120.3 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is UTG with T:heart: J:spade: Q:heart: Q:spade:
      Hero raises to $0.85, 3 folds, SB calls $0.75, BB folds

      Flop: ($1.95) Q:club: 5:spade: 2:diamond: (2 players)
      SB bets $1.25, Hero calls $1.25

      Turn: ($4.45) 3:heart: (2 players)
      SB bets $3.25, Hero calls $3.25

      River: ($10.95) 7:heart: (2 players)
      SB bets $6.50, Hero folds


      Or this MW pot, where also I "fell in love" with my nut flush thinking that it wasn't probably that someone had a full house on the river

      Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Omaha Cash, 6 Players


      SB: $142.91 (571.6 bb)
      BB: $10.95 (43.8 bb)
      UTG: $94.22 (376.9 bb)
      MP: $81.27 (325.1 bb)
      CO: $21.77 (87.1 bb)
      Hero (BTN): $25 (100 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is BTN with 5:diamond: 6:spade: A:heart: 8:heart:
      UTG raises to $0.50, MP calls $0.50, CO calls $0.50, Hero calls $0.50, SB folds, BB calls $0.25

      Flop: ($2.60) 2:club: 3:diamond: 4:heart: (5 players)
      BB checks, UTG bets $0.50, MP raises to $1.75, CO folds, Hero calls $1.75, BB folds, UTG calls $1.25

      Turn: ($7.85) 2:heart: (3 players)
      UTG checks, MP checks, Hero checks

      River: ($7.85) 9:heart: (3 players)
      UTG bets $3.75, MP calls $3.75, Hero calls $3.75


      And I have this good example of why I have to not turn my hand into a bluff on the river against a player without reads:

      A hand played against an unknown, where I was trying to make him fold probably a slowplayed set (something very common) or a str8 on the river (I was very optimistic), but to my surprise my two pair won at showdown!! People don't fold and I keep trying to make them fold even turning hands into a bluff, I guees I level my self when I get tired while playing

      Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Omaha Cash, 6 Players


      SB: $25.33 (101.3 bb)
      BB: $30.96 (123.8 bb)
      UTG: $84.56 (338.2 bb)
      MP: $26.73 (106.9 bb)
      Hero (CO): $25 (100 bb)
      BTN: $26.66 (106.6 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is CO with 9:club: A:spade: T:club: 8:diamond:
      2 folds, Hero raises to $0.75, BTN folds, SB calls $0.65, BB calls $0.50

      Flop: ($2.25) 2:heart: 8:club: T:spade: (3 players)
      SB checks, BB bets $1.50, Hero calls $1.50, SB folds

      Turn: ($5.25) 5:spade: (2 players)
      BB checks, Hero bets $4.37, BB calls $4.37

      River: ($13.99) Q:spade: (2 players)
      BB checks, Hero bets $9.90, BB calls $9.90


      I can't find a hand on my database of what I consider a good "slowplay" and turn our hand into a bluff, and that situation is when you bet a str8 on the flop and get raised by someone who almost always has the same str8 in that spot and you don't have a redraw. Then I think the best play is to call and try to outplay him when the board changes.

      Well, let me know what you think about this examples :f_biggrin:

      Regards

      See you in the couching
    • ZeroDegrees
      ZeroDegrees
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.06.2008 Posts: 743
      Is the coaching still on for thursday? I can't see it in the coaching schedule.
    • PerusJamppa
      PerusJamppa
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.01.2008 Posts: 2,714
      Originally posted by Gothicrow
      I can't find a hand on my database of what I consider a good "slowplay"..
      I think that's because such a thing doesn't exist in PLO.. :s_grin:
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 09.07.2010 Posts: 10,507
      Thanks Gothicrow.

      Keep them coming. :)
    • Gothicrow
      Gothicrow
      Gold
      Joined: 15.11.2010 Posts: 834
      Hi

      Here another hand related with this topic:

      The opponent in 991 hands: 20/11, donk 20%, AF 1.8

      We have the nuts, but our "nuts" are flipping or behind even against some draws. In fact, on this board the effective nuts is top set + nut FD imo, not the str8. This time I decided to raise and call, but we can't be happy when we get 3bet here. Looking for an equity shift would be considered as slowplay?

      Regards

      Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Omaha Cash, 6 Players


      SB: $27.53 (110.1 bb)
      BB: $28.59 (114.4 bb)
      UTG: $47.38 (189.5 bb)
      Hero (MP): $26.77 (107.1 bb)
      CO: $38.04 (152.2 bb)
      BTN: $16.06 (64.2 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is MP with J:heart: 9:diamond: J:spade: 9:club:
      UTG folds, Hero raises to $0.85, CO calls $0.85, BTN folds, SB calls $0.75, BB folds

      Flop: ($2.80) Q:heart: 8:club: T:club: (3 players)
      SB bets $2.01, Hero raises to $8.71, CO folds, SB raises to $26.68 and is all-in, Hero calls $17.21
    • ZeroDegrees
      ZeroDegrees
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.06.2008 Posts: 743
      Hi!
      I have a hand where I attempted to slowplay a set kings:
      Microgaming - €0.04 PL Hi (6 max) - Omaha Hi - 4 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

      BB: 82.5 BB (VPIP: 67.19, PFR: 40.63, 3Bet Preflop: 21.74, Hands: 65)
      CO: 337.75 BB (VPIP: 78.05, PFR: 2.44, 3Bet Preflop: 5.88, Hands: 42)
      BTN: 148.5 BB (VPIP: 35.44, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 79)
      Hero (SB): 143.5 BB

      Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

      Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 5:heart: 4:heart: K:spade: K:club:

      CO calls 1 BB, BTN calls 1 BB, Hero calls 0.5 BB, BB raises to 5 BB, CO calls 4 BB, BTN calls 4 BB, Hero calls 4 BB

      Flop: (20 BB, 4 players) K:diamond: 6:heart: A:club:
      Hero checks, BB checks, CO checks, BTN bets 10 BB, Hero calls 10 BB, fold, CO calls 10 BB

      Turn: (50 BB, 3 players) 4:diamond:
      Hero checks, CO checks, BTN checks

      River: (50 BB, 3 players) J:diamond:
      Hero checks, CO bets 25 BB, fold, Hero calls 25 BB

      I was pretty sure BU would c-bet the turn and was hoping to checkraise a safe turn. By the river I'm left with a bluffcatcher. Seems only top full houses, quads and straight flushes are candidates to slowplay and then it's hard to get action anyway. Looking forwart to tonights coaching!
    • tonypmm
      tonypmm
      Silver
      Joined: 11.01.2009 Posts: 3,853
      Fwiw, I used the same unexploitable pun when naming my Youtube channel (currently having no videos at all), and I object in no way against the name of the coaching :f_love:

      There has been one example of admitted poor preflop play (the first Gothicrow's hand), but I'd like to emphasise once more that overplaying hands pre results in losing money not only with bare overpairs (3-bet pocket pairs with bad sidecards), but also with dominated flopped (near-)nuts.

      In the below hands, I was experimenting with loose UTG opens... well, they were way too loose :facepalm:

      #1. iPoker - $0.50 PL Hi (6 max) - Omaha Hi - 5 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

      Hero (UTG): $111.56
      CO: $30.98 (VPIP: 51.55, PFR: 1.86, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 164)
      BTN: $56.40 (VPIP: 54.84, PFR: 35.02, 3Bet Preflop: 7.41, Hands: 218)
      SB: $92.86 (VPIP: 27.52, PFR: 20.64, 3Bet Preflop: 10.87, Hands: 220)
      BB: $178.49 (VPIP: 22.34, PFR: 15.63, 3Bet Preflop: 5.79, Hands: 1,522)

      SB posts SB $0.25, BB posts BB $0.50

      Pre Flop: (pot: $0.75) Hero has 7:diamond: 8:club: 4:club: J:diamond:

      Hero raises to $1.75, CO calls $1.75, BTN calls $1.75, SB calls $1.50, fold

      Flop: ($7.50, 4 players) T:heart: 6:heart: 9:diamond:
      SB bets $6.00, Hero raises to $25.50, CO raises to $29.23, fold, SB raises to $91.11 and is all-in, Hero calls $65.61
      Turn: ($218.95, 3 players) 3:diamond:

      River: ($218.95, 3 players) 8:diamond:

      Hero shows 7:diamond: 8:club: 4:club: J:diamond: (Flush, Jack High)
      Main Pot [$95.19]: (Pre 29%, Flop 22%, Turn 44%)
      Side Pot#1 [$123.76]: (Pre 48%, Flop 34%, Turn 55%)

      CO shows K:diamond: 8:spade: J:spade: 9:club: (Two Pair, Nines and Eights)
      Main Pot [$95.19]: (Pre 32%, Flop 11%, Turn 8%)

      SB shows 9:spade: A:heart: 2:club: 9:heart: (Three of a Kind, Nines)
      Main Pot [$95.19]: (Pre 40%, Flop 67%, Turn 47%)
      Side Pot#1 [$123.76]: (Pre 53%, Flop 66%, Turn 45%)

      Hero wins $215.95

      Just look at my flop equity with the nuts there...

      A made straight on a wet flop with overwraps possible is worth very little. There's a big difference between flops like T96hh and T76hh. On the latter, no nut straight redraws (except to a split with 98) are possible, and therefore it's much safer. On the former, 87xx can be outdrawn by QJ8/KQJ, so it's much wetter.

      #2. iPoker - $0.50 PL Hi (6 max) - Omaha Hi - 5 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

      CO: $117.51 (VPIP: 71.19, PFR: 11.86, 3Bet Preflop: 10.00, Hands: 60)
      BTN: $50.00 (VPIP: 20.00, PFR: 10.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 31)
      SB: $49.50 (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 1)
      BB: $121.91 (VPIP: 25.45, PFR: 14.09, 3Bet Preflop: 3.26, Hands: 227)
      Hero (UTG): $56.90

      SB posts SB $0.25, BB posts BB $0.50

      Pre Flop: (pot: $0.75) Hero has 8:spade: 9:diamond: 7:heart: 4:spade:

      Hero raises to $1.75, CO calls $1.75, BTN calls $1.75, SB raises to $9.25, fold, Hero calls $7.50, CO calls $7.50, BTN calls $7.50

      Flop: ($37.50, 4 players) J:heart: T:spade: Q:club:
      SB bets $37.50, Hero raises to $47.65, fold, BTN calls $40.75, SB calls $2.75
      Turn: ($159.25, 3 players) 9:spade:

      River: ($159.25, 3 players) 3:spade:

      BTN shows K:heart: T:heart: Q:diamond: 8:heart: (Straight, King High)
      Main Pot [$158.25]: (Pre 25%, Flop 26%, Turn 13%)
      Side Pot#1 [$1.00]: (Pre 57%, Flop 47%, Turn 80%)

      SB shows J:club: A:diamond: K:diamond: A:heart: (Straight, Ace High)
      Main Pot [$158.25]: (Pre 43%, Flop 69%, Turn 65%)

      Hero shows 8:spade: 9:diamond: 7:heart: 4:spade: (Flush, Ten High)
      Main Pot [$158.25]: (Pre 33%, Flop 5%, Turn 22%)
      Side Pot#1 [$1.00]: (Pre 42%, Flop 53%, Turn 20%)

      Hero wins $163.15

      Even with the flop SPR~1 (stack-to-pot ratio), 9874 is just too poor a hand to call a 3-bet going multiway. Someone will often have a dominating straight by the river (the squeezer will have AK quite often too), and there's little potential other than for a straight.
    • tonypmm
      tonypmm
      Silver
      Joined: 11.01.2009 Posts: 3,853
      Actually, the actions after the 3-bet in hand #2 look like right, but only slightly (winning only ~$2-3 at best) and only due to super-favourable pot odds and SPR.

      That isn't very relevant for postflop strategy to be discussed :facepalm: , so I'll put the calc in a spoiler.
      The hand has a 22-23% equity pre vs 3 reasonable ranges according to ProPokerTools and can stack off profitably (= has >21% equity) only on 40-50% of flops.

      So, 60% of the time, we lose -$7.50 (the amount to call the squeeze), and 40% of the time, we stack off with an average equity of 41% (to calc it, I subtracted the equity share corresponding to our flop folds, 60% * 10% ~ 6%, [observing that our avg flop equity when we fold is 6%] from the overall preflop equity 22.6%, and dividing the result, 16.6%, by 40%, to get 16.6/40=0.41=41.5%), so gain $163.50*41.5% - ($7.50+$40.75)~$19. The overall EV is thus $19*40% - $7.5*60% ~ $3.

      But the fact that, on this particular - rainbow! - flop, where we have a made straight, our equity is merely 22.3%, :f_eek: tells a lot about why I shouldn't have opened this UTG.
    • tonypmm
      tonypmm
      Silver
      Joined: 11.01.2009 Posts: 3,853
      The following one is rather about a sizing tell: a recreational player *potted* on this rainbow texture, and I had only the 2nd nuts, while a broadway redraw was possibly out there... I could have found a fold there, though I'm not so sure. To make things worse, my raise could have folded out 2nd best hands like top 2 that would bomb the turn.

      iPoker - €0.20 PL Hi (6 max) - Omaha Hi - 6 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

      UTG: €27.14 (VPIP: 62.00, PFR: 22.00, 3Bet Preflop: 4.76, Hands: 51)
      MP: €43.17 (VPIP: 55.26, PFR: 6.58, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 76)
      CO: €30.00 (VPIP: 49.38, PFR: 24.69, 3Bet Preflop: 10.81, Hands: 81)
      Hero (BTN): €19.00
      SB: €23.30 (VPIP: 23.60, PFR: 13.08, 3Bet Preflop: 3.17, Hands: 435)
      BB: €44.52 (VPIP: 61.54, PFR: 20.51, 3Bet Preflop: 5.88, Hands: 39)

      SB posts SB €0.10, BB posts BB €0.20

      Pre Flop: (pot: €0.30) Hero has 7:diamond: 9:club: 5:heart: A:heart:

      UTG calls €0.20, MP calls €0.20, fold, Hero calls €0.20, SB raises to €1.20, BB calls €1.00, UTG calls €1.00, fold, Hero calls €1.00

      Flop: (€5.00, 4 players) T:spade: 8:heart: J:diamond:
      SB checks, BB bets €5.00, fold, Hero raises to €17.80 and is all-in, fold, BB calls €12.80
      Turn: (€40.60, 2 players) 9:heart:

      River: (€40.60, 2 players) K:heart:

      Hero shows 7:diamond: 9:club: 5:heart: A:heart: (Flush, Ace High) (Pre 57%, Flop 5%, Turn 23%)
      BB shows K:diamond: 9:spade: 2:diamond: Q:club: (Straight, King High) (Pre 43%, Flop 95%, Turn 78%)
      Hero wins €38.57
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 09.07.2010 Posts: 10,507
      In the first coaching the status promotion went to tonypmm, grats!

      I am sorry that I had so much to talk, we didn't have time to go through all of the hands posted in here. I will post my thoughts on those during the weekend and after that I will open up the discussion for next week.
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 09.07.2010 Posts: 10,507
      Week 2: Is math that important? (aka: mathematical leaks)

      This week you will learn the basic mathematics and why they are so important in PLO. These include equities, pot odds, betsizing and missing value.

      Often the mathematical videos are full of complex formulas. I hate formulas, so the approach is more practical.

      If you have a hand that has an mathematical problem (equities, pot odds, implied odds etc.) please post it to this thread.

      Also, to get familiar with Equilab I have a task for you:

      Try to create a situation where flopped nuts has as low equity as possible against a draw in a headsup pot on the flop.
    • tonypmm
      tonypmm
      Silver
      Joined: 11.01.2009 Posts: 3,853
      I haven't thought much on the 'home task', but my educated guess is (fellow students, we should think on our own before looking up each other's answers in spoilers!)

      a bare straight vs an over-OESD + set + FD, like 8:club: 7:heart: 5:club: 4:heart: vs Q:spade: J:diamond: T:diamond: T:heart: on the flop T:spade: 9:diamond: 6:diamond: , the equity of the nuts is 21.22%.

      I'll try to refine my example (i.e. to research whether I've missed some backdoor possibilities that would make the equity of the nuts slightly lower) shortly.

      Also, Ville, please add me in the com tool, we have smth to talk about.
    • tonypmm
      tonypmm
      Silver
      Joined: 11.01.2009 Posts: 3,853
      Thanks for adding me (and of course for awarding the status upgrade)!

      Speaking of equities, once upon a time I did the same thing for 5-card PLO (long before doing it for 4 cards!) out of curiosity, and the result is even more amazing! Can you guess how small the equity of the nuts can be on a flop HU vs non-nuts in 5-card PLO?
      A:heart: 7:club: 6:club: 3:club: 2:heart: has 6.34% vs J:diamond: T :spade: 7:diamond: 5:spade: 5:club: on the 9:spade: 8:spade: 5:diamond: flop :f_eek:
    • ZeroDegrees
      ZeroDegrees
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.06.2008 Posts: 743
      First try: 28% underdog with bad straight
      Board: J:diamond: T:diamond: 9:spade:        Equity    Wins    Ties MP2    27.71%  27.71%   0.00% { 3h8s7s2c } MP3    72.29%  72.29%   0.00% { AdQdJsTs }

      [/SIZE][/FONT]
      Second try: 33% with 2 sets
      Board: 2:diamond: 7:club: 6:club:        Equity    Wins    Ties MP2    33.03%  33.03%   0.00% { 7h6h7s6s } MP3    66.97%  66.97%   0.00% { 5d4d9c8c }


      I'll be back