fixed limit extended charts question

    • neorauk
      neorauk
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      Joined: 21.04.2014 Posts: 2
      is this chart position specific? for example the chart with no raise and one caller and let's say i have 6,6, it says to raise with them. is that even in early or middle position? some of them just don't make sense to me. please help.
  • 68 replies
    • Avataren
      Avataren
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      Joined: 28.04.2010 Posts: 1,743
      dont use pokerstrategy's hand charts, they will only make you lose money and become a tight nitty bad player who has trouble beating 5/Tc..

      they are so outdated that my dead grandmother used them when she was young.. at least it feels that way. (they were designed for 2008 games not 2014)
    • neorauk
      neorauk
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      if you don't use them, then what do you use?
    • Boomer2k10
      Boomer2k10
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      My guess is Ava has Super-Fun-Happy Ranges :)

      That being said he is correct, the PS LHE Charts are way out-dated for today's games. They were designed for a "tight is right" era which doesn't exist anymore outside of the smallest of micro stakes.

      How often you'd get exploited for playing those ranges, I honestly don't know, but they're definitely sub-optimal for today's games, especailly on the CO and Button. (Opening 37% from the button is laughably tight)

      The arguement really is build your own ranges around your game. I could give you the ranges I'd open in a low stakes game but they'd probably be too wide if you're not used to playing the type of game I do and you'd more than likely end up making post-flop mistakes becasue of it which would cost you a lot of money.

      Oh and btw, they're tight even for 2008 :)
    • Avataren
      Avataren
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      Originally posted by Boomer2k10
      My guess is Ava has Super-Fun-Happy Ranges :)

      That being said he is correct, the PS LHE Charts are way out-dated for today's games. They were designed for a "tight is right" era which doesn't exist anymore outside of the smallest of micro stakes.

      How often you'd get exploited for playing those ranges, I honestly don't know, but they're definitely sub-optimal for today's games, especailly on the CO and Button. (Opening 37% from the button is laughably tight)

      The arguement really is build your own ranges around your game. I could give you the ranges I'd open in a low stakes game but they'd probably be too wide if you're not used to playing the type of game I do and you'd more than likely end up making post-flop mistakes becasue of it which would cost you a lot of money.

      Oh and btw, they're tight even for 2008 :)
      i love you boomer <3
    • kavboj84
      kavboj84
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      Joined: 16.06.2011 Posts: 2,173
      Originally posted by Boomer2k10

      How often you'd get exploited for playing those ranges, I honestly don't know, but they're definitely sub-optimal for today's games, especailly on the CO and Button. (Opening 37% from the button is laughably tight)
      how do you exploit those ranges ?
    • Avataren
      Avataren
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      Joined: 28.04.2010 Posts: 1,743
      Originally posted by kavboj84
      Originally posted by Boomer2k10

      How often you'd get exploited for playing those ranges, I honestly don't know, but they're definitely sub-optimal for today's games, especailly on the CO and Button. (Opening 37% from the button is laughably tight)
      how do you exploit those ranges ?

      by raising a ton more and put the nit into an unfamiliar territory aka 3betting .. he wont know what to do when his AK doesn't hit and fold more than he should. Its not like its going to be difficult playing vs him postflop. he will raise you when he hit and fold when he doesn't.

      nits tend to play cards face up in situations they aren't comfortable in.
    • kavboj84
      kavboj84
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      Originally posted by Avataren
      Originally posted by kavboj84
      Originally posted by Boomer2k10

      How often you'd get exploited for playing those ranges, I honestly don't know, but they're definitely sub-optimal for today's games, especailly on the CO and Button. (Opening 37% from the button is laughably tight)
      how do you exploit those ranges ?

      by raising a ton more and put the nit into an unfamiliar territory aka 3betting .. he wont know what to do when his AK doesn't hit and fold more than he should. Its not like its going to be difficult playing vs him postflop. he will raise you when he hit and fold when he doesn't.

      nits tend to play cards face up in situations they aren't comfortable in.
      Why don't you do that against an open from a few position earlier then, when someone raises a lot less say 20% ?
    • Avataren
      Avataren
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      Joined: 28.04.2010 Posts: 1,743
      Originally posted by kavboj84
      Originally posted by Avataren
      Originally posted by kavboj84
      Originally posted by Boomer2k10

      How often you'd get exploited for playing those ranges, I honestly don't know, but they're definitely sub-optimal for today's games, especailly on the CO and Button. (Opening 37% from the button is laughably tight)
      how do you exploit those ranges ?

      by raising a ton more and put the nit into an unfamiliar territory aka 3betting .. he wont know what to do when his AK doesn't hit and fold more than he should. Its not like its going to be difficult playing vs him postflop. he will raise you when he hit and fold when he doesn't.

      nits tend to play cards face up in situations they aren't comfortable in.
      Why don't you do that against an open from a few position earlier then, when someone raises a lot less say 20% ?
      because their ranges earlier pos is naturally stronger. if they follow a shitty ORC as PS has then the ranges tighten up in terms of hand strength.
    • kavboj84
      kavboj84
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      But you claimed that its the 'tightness' of their ranges which you exploit,how come you dont exploit them even more when they are more tighter ? There is a contradiciton is your statements because you say that they are tight and this is what you exploit but when they are even tighter you say you dont want to 3bet them more often because their ranges are strong.
    • Avataren
      Avataren
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      Originally posted by kavboj84
      But you claimed that its the 'tightness' of their ranges which you exploit,how come you dont exploit them even more when they are more tighter ? There is a contradiciton is your statements because you say that they are tight and this is what you exploit but when they are even tighter you say you dont want to 3bet them more often because their ranges are strong.
      i know it sounds the same but it isnt .. try to read what i said again and then try to think of the xx percentage these tight ranges dictate and consider the position that our "hero" is in btn vs lj and how experienced he is or would be postflop (not very good considering he uses these ranges in the first place)
    • kavboj84
      kavboj84
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      I have and it sounds the same bs again. How do you play against an opponent who raises a FR UTG range from the small blind but plays that range perfectly ? Do you play vs him like he was raising a 70%-ish range ? How do you take advantege on him ?
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
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      The "natural" way to exploit a tight player is to fold more when they have already entered the pot. Of course, you can open a lot yourself, since they won't 3-bet you enough.

      Ava's theory about blowing them off their hands might work against some players, but not all. Playing tight doesn't necessarily mean that they suck postflop. They might decide you are a wild player and call you down much lighter than you think.
    • kavboj84
      kavboj84
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      fold/open more than what ? Is there a default % that one should open/call/3bet ? Where does that number come from and how do you calculate it ?
      Also if you start opening wider it doesnt mean that you wont get 3bet more. The charts only state that if someone opens rage 'X' 3bet him with 'Y' . It doesnt say that if someone opens a range as wide as a CO range from MP2 you should 3bet him with a 3bet range vs an MP2 opener, but adjust accordingly. If someone doesnt 3bet you wider if you start opening wider its because he cant adjust and not because the charts are nitty.
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
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      Why not just take fold/open more as relative to your own "default" range?

      Of corse there is a risk your tight oppnent adjusts properly. That's inherent in all exploitative play.
    • kavboj84
      kavboj84
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      I didnt say that you cant take your own range into account I was just asking that how do you know that you open the right amount from a specific position ?
    • Avataren
      Avataren
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      Originally posted by kavboj84
      I didnt say that you cant take your own range into account I was just asking that how do you know that you open the right amount from a specific position ?
      wait , are you now asking about a competent player or a player who plays with these PS charts ? as I was assuming someone who used these ranges/charts. as i said if anyone is using them they are not very good (SORRY OP) Considering anyone who knows just a bit about poker wouldn't use these ranges as they are ridiculously bad for todays games.

      I was saying you should 3bet a guy who uses these PS charts. as he is gonna be really bad post flop and react very badly to aggression considering hes new , not a fish but certainly not a good player or competent yet.

      and even these PS charts dictate that your hand strength should be stronger in Early position than late. therefor its better to 3bet the hell out of this guy when hes in late position than in early because he wont have as many AA - JJ in late than early. making our chances that he hits nothing greater when he sits in late than early.
    • kavboj84
      kavboj84
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      You dont seem to have a slight clue about whats the problem with your reasoning. You make the conclusion that the charts are bad, because you assume that everyone who uses them plays bad postflop. Like it was impossible to play good postflop with these ranges, while you play the same ranges just from a position earlier.

      I just say that imagine Phil Ivey playing these charts, now you cant say that there is an incompetent player behind the same ranges, and following your logic the charts have become supergood now.
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
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      Originally posted by kavboj84
      I didn't say that you cant take your own range into account I was just asking that how do you know that you open the right amount from a specific position ?
      Considering they don't know for 100% sure how much even to open from the button or the small blind, it's not surprising that there are no known "perfect" ranges. It is just fairly certain that the PS charts are too tight, especially in the later positions. Having said that, they probably aren't bad for a beginner.

      I'm usually playing looser than the charts, but not always. Playing stuff like 55 UTG with two habitual cold-callers behind you and foldy blinds, meaning a probable 3-way pot OOP is probably a losing proposition. That said, you should probably have enough combos so that most boards can hit you, but that doesn't mean that all combos of, say, 87s should be played, but perhaps one should be played. Throw in a 22 or 33 combo as well. (Just examples of what it could look like.) That's the lines I reason along.

      Playing PS charts UTG means that you have no card below a 6 in your range - and only the pp's below 8 where they allow for suited aces. This is perhaps exploitable (by 3-betting and barreling on the right type of boards). Guess that this is what Ava has in mind.
    • kavboj84
      kavboj84
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      Considering they don't know for 100% sure how much even to open from the button or the small blind, it's not surprising that there are no known "perfect" ranges. It is just fairly certain that the PS charts are too tight, especially in the later positions.


      Why is it certain ? Have you ever seen something (a model, simulation whatever) that implies that ?

      Playing PS charts UTG means that you have no card below a 6 in your range - and only the pp's below 8 where they allow for suited aces. This is perhaps exploitable (by 3-betting and barreling on the right type of boards).



      I dont think that it is exploitable that you dont have cards below X in your range. If it is, then earlier positions like FR UTG +1, +2 would be also exploitable, but it does not work that way. If you 3bet such a range wider than you should as an 'overbluff', expecting your opponent to fold on some boards, and he does not make those overfolds he will simply crush your weak range due to his equity edge, and you gonna barrel yourself into nirvana.

      And if someone is a fit or fold type, and overfolds in 3bet pots, then he will overfold with a wider range even more, for him using loosisg ranges would be a disaster.