Rng The Truth

    • billnmex
      billnmex
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      Joined: 26.04.2014 Posts: 43
      I had a friend tell me that playing on-line is playing in a rigged game THAT THE RNG IS NOT RANDOM. Do all sites use a standard RNG? I am not a big computer guy and would like to know if what these people are accusing on line poker sites of is even possible.I find it hard to believe that even if possible that a site as big as poker stars ( or any site ) would have a program written so that towards the end of a tournament the player with the most chips will win 90 percent of the time to get the game over quicker or that after you withdrew money it is setup so you lose way more than before you took money out especially at the micro levels. He sent me to a link that had a whole bunch of people saying that they could not win a hand etc etc. That they were constantly being burned on the river to russian players (I figure you lose to Russian players more than others is because there are more Russians playing than other countries) The other thing I noticed was most of the people bitching were the micro level players and AGAIN I FIND IT HARD TO BELIEVE THAT A SITE AS BIG AS POKER STARS WOULD TARGET ANYONE BUT ESPECIALLY PLAYERS WITH 25 DOLLARS ON ACCOUNT.can someone explain if this is even possible. THANKS IN ADVANCE FOR ANY HELP
  • 19 replies
    • Tomaloc
      Tomaloc
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      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 6,858
      "possible"? yeah.
      don't think it's actually rigged though :D even if it is, me and a bunch of other players have been able to play profitably for a fair amount of time so whatever...
    • billnmex
      billnmex
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      Joined: 26.04.2014 Posts: 43
      Appreciate the feedback. I am new to the on-line poker games and after reading some of the complaints against every site I just could not fathom why any site would even need to do something like this. They are making millions on the rake alone..THANKS AGAIN
    • metza
      metza
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      Joined: 28.01.2012 Posts: 2,220
      Originally posted by billnmex
      They are making millions on the rake alone
      Try billions :f_o:
    • billnmex
      billnmex
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      Joined: 26.04.2014 Posts: 43
      AMEN
    • gadget51
      gadget51
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      Joined: 23.06.2008 Posts: 5,622
      Hi billinmex,

      I think you will find that most of the ranting done about rigged RNGs is by people losing for a sustained period of time - and yes, as you so astutely noted, mostly by the lower buy-in level players.

      I would never claim to be close to any sort of expert, so I can onyl give my opinion here, but it seems to me that if the RNG is rigged for one person, it surely makes logical sense that it must be rigged for everyone? It should therefore follow that everyone would be losing. I could be way off the mark here of course and more than willing to be corrected by more experienced members.

      Also, it happens that mostly lower buy-in players complain because they really don't understand variance and how it can affect your results.

      There is an excellent video explaining the effects of variance, produced by our very experienced and popular coach Bogdan. You can find it here

      Regards,

      Mal.
    • Harrier88
      Harrier88
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      Joined: 01.05.2012 Posts: 1,971
      People who claim that online poker is rigged keep popping up time after time, sometimes even on this forum. It's best to just ignore them.
    • martinemem
      martinemem
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      Joined: 05.07.2011 Posts: 596
      Gus hansen also complaining about riggedness. But that wasnt the online poker site, that was the players he played against.

      Its just a clear sign that whoever claims this are fishes.
    • UPAY4DINNER
      UPAY4DINNER
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      Joined: 27.09.2009 Posts: 21,921
      I'll come answer this on Monday......
    • metza
      metza
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      Joined: 28.01.2012 Posts: 2,220
      I also wrote a short article on this, hopefully I am allowed to link to it since I'm pretty sure the site is not a competitor...
      Article
    • billnmex
      billnmex
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      Joined: 26.04.2014 Posts: 43
      Being new to the site just want to say THANKS to EVERYONE for the feedback.I learn a lot just reading the forums.
    • billnmex
      billnmex
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      Joined: 26.04.2014 Posts: 43
      Just read your article..COGNITIVE BIAS..love the term and it is right on the mark.would like to read more of your work. Being new to the site where can I find them? THANKS
    • rompas
      rompas
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      Joined: 12.02.2014 Posts: 2,366
      Originally posted by HollyMichelle
      I'll come answer this on Monday......
      now i get intrested to see what you think about this :tongue:
    • metza
      metza
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      Joined: 28.01.2012 Posts: 2,220
      Originally posted by billnmex
      Just read your article..COGNITIVE BIAS..love the term and it is right on the mark.would like to read more of your work. Being new to the site where can I find them? THANKS
      Thanks for the feedback, yeah I've just started out for these guys, only two articles at the moment but two more should be out very soon, link is in signature :f_biggrin:

      Originally posted by HollyMichelle
      I'll come answer this on Monday......
      Joys of free speech eh :f_biggrin:
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
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      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,901
      Originally posted by metza
      I also wrote a short article on this, hopefully I am allowed to link to it since I'm pretty sure the site is not a competitor...
      Article
      Hi metza,
      Good article,
      However I could not follow what looked to be links:
      In particular, I wanted to look at the cognitive bias article, and the variance simulator.
      The whole page seemed greyed out, and nothing responded to a click anywhere.
      It might be due to my ad blocker software, though.

      Would you mind posting those links in this thread, please?

      My own take on the issue is a little different.

      Playing online poker is an exercise in faith.
        You must have faith in mathematics. You must believe that over the long term, the odds of winning are equal for everyone.
        You must trust that the poker room treats all its customers identically
        You must have faith in yourself. You must believe that you are capable of mastering the skills and knowledge necessary to give you an edge over the other players.
        You must have faith in your ability to master your emotions, and take losses in stride.

      If you have doubts in any of these areas, then playing poker online -- or even live -- is foolish.

      I do not know the technical details of RNGs are they are used in major poker sites.

      I believe that the industry would be helped if poker rooms were open about the RNGs that they use. I know that there are organizations that certify poker room RNGs, but again, the criteria they use, and the results they obtain are not available to the playing public. At least I don't know any any such public disclosure -- if anyone does, I'd love to hear about it.

      If you are at all interested in the problem of random number generation, I highly recommend this site, and specifically this article:
      http://www.random.org/randomness/

      There are 8.06582 x10^+67 possible arrangements of a 52-card deck. As far as poker is concerned many of those arrangements will yield the exact same hand values, but even so the range of numbers is wide.

      I recently bust out of a 10,000 entrant freeroll well shy of the money holding AA.
      The table chip leader whose stack was about 30x mine called my open shove w/ 84o
      The flop was AK6 T & R were 5 and 7.

      Clearly rigged.

      Peace,
      --VS
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,901
      Shortly after posting that, I came across this:
      http://www.gamingcommission.ca/docs/RegulationsConcerningInteractiveGaming_amended16October2013.pdf

      from this site:
      http://www.gamingcommission.ca/regulations.htm

      If you follow the link to "permit holders" you will see some familiar names.
      Although the document linked to above contains this:

      175.
      Without limiting the generality of the foregoing section 174, the
      Commission will approve the following technical standards:
      (a) Internet Random Number Generator Requirements;
      (b) Internet Report Requirements;
      (c) Internet Network Infrastructure and Computer Systems Requirements;
      (d) Internet Wagering Application Requirement s;
      (e) Internet System Integrity Requirements; and
      (f) Internet Games, General Requirements.

      However the document does not specify what the "Internet Random Number Generator Requirements" actually are.

      Cheers,
      --VS
    • metza
      metza
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      Joined: 28.01.2012 Posts: 2,220
      Originally posted by VorpalF2F

      The whole page seemed greyed out, and nothing responded to a click anywhere.
      It might be due to my ad blocker software, though.

      Would you mind posting those links in this thread, please?
      The links work ok for me so I think its your ad blocker. The cognitive bias link is just to the wikipedia page for it :f_grin: , but the variance calculator is a pretty good one.

      Variance Calculator

      Cognitive Bias
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,901
      Thanks!
      "cognitive bias" is a wonderfully decorative way of saying, "kidding yourself", or "dreaming".
      Something that a mental game review needs to include -- "Were my expectations reasonable".

      I have a knack of looking at a problem and seeing a host of possible solutions.
      I have a friend that can point out for each one, why none of them will work.
      He's almost always wrong, but sometimes it takes a lot of time and effort to prove it.

      The variance one is scary.
      I put in for a million hands with a 1BB/100 and 50 BB/100 SD and the worst case breaks even at around 600K hands (assuming I remembered correctly)

      Cheers,
      --VS
    • metza
      metza
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.01.2012 Posts: 2,220
      Yeah the variance calculator is quite terrifying imo :f_biggrin:

      I put 1bb/100 and 80 std dev which I think is around average. For 1 million hands the worst run was -157BI :f_eek: On the other hand, the best run was +370BI, which is running at 3.7x normal winrate for 1 million hands :f_biggrin:

      What a sick game we play :f_cool:

      I wonder if the calculator factors in rake since that may alter things a lot such as pre rake winrate and post rake winrate...
    • UPAY4DINNER
      UPAY4DINNER
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.09.2009 Posts: 21,921
      It's all rigged

      Or is it


      I don't know


      It could be

      Then again


      It may not be

      No it's not rigged


      Well


      I don't think it is anyways


      Or do I?


      :coolface: