Gto vs exploitive strategies on the flop , which is better?

    • Suboptimal88
      Suboptimal88
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.06.2014 Posts: 53
      ok as far as i understand gto takes a specific board then it assigns all parts of your range into different groups , sdv/value/bluffs etc.

      Gto cares about each board individually , your range must be balanced on each board.

      In todays games some people tend to be very unbalanced on most boards.

      For example they will raise a lot on Q-x-x boards or they will fold a lot on three broadway boards , this is purely a hypothetical example.

      Atm i try to fix my lines when im oop and i miss on the flop.

      Some boards will generate a lot of outs like overcards/gutshots/flush draws while some others will not give you many options except sdv and stone cold bluffs.

      For example a board like A-3-7 rainbow basically grant you no outs , the best semibluff you can pull on those boards is the backdoor flush draw but this alone is quite a weak semibluff.

      Some other boards will make it very easy for you to semibluff etc.

      Anyway which option should i choose when i decide how to react otf? should i try to balance my range on each board individually or should i simply ignore bad boards and play on boards who grant me a lot of options?

      could you create a pseudobalance or even gto , if you bet a lot on some boards and fold alot on others?

      its very hard to create a balance line in A-2-7 rainbow type boards with a wide range especially when the opponent has the initiative and you are oop , there is simply nothing but backdoors and sdv on those boards , its hard to react a lot in order for your range to be balanced.
  • 8 replies
    • Tomaloc
      Tomaloc
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 6,858
      yeah, having a c/r range in A72r is difficult. :f_biggrin:
      one thing you could consider is a donking strategy
    • Suboptimal88
      Suboptimal88
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.06.2014 Posts: 53
      Originally posted by Tomaloc
      yeah, having a c/r range in A72r is difficult. :f_biggrin:
      one thing you could consider is a donking strategy
      is it a big error to not have a bluff range on this board and only play your sdv/value range readless?
    • jules97
      jules97
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.06.2012 Posts: 1,449
      If you don't know what the "GTO" strategy is, how could you possibly play exploitably?
    • jbpatzer
      jbpatzer
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2009 Posts: 6,944
      Originally posted by jules97
      If you don't know what the "GTO" strategy is, how could you possibly play exploitably?
      I'd be happier saying, 'If you don't know how to exploit somebody, how can you find a GTO strategy?'.

      For example, in the AKQ game, you don't need to know the GTO calling frequency to know that if somebody never bluffs his Q you should always fold a K, and that if somebody always bluffs his Q you should never fold a K. Make it 'bluffs with 10%/90% of his Qs', and the argument's the same. You don't need to know the break even point to exploit extremes of behaviour. I expect most people's strategies in NLHE are similarly extreme. Ofc, that doesn't mean I have any clue how to explot them myself, but in principle..... :f_cool:
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,694
      try to come up with your own GTO approximation against unknown players, and if you know about certain leaks your opponents may have, then go ahead and try to deviate accordingly.
    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,530
      Originally posted by jules97
      If you don't know what the "GTO" strategy is, how could you possibly play exploitably?
      Very easilly. When I was playing NL10 I was crashing it without even knowing anything about GTO in poker. How could I crash it? Well, I was 3betting a lot, villians were folding a lot, value heavy ranges etc.

      it is really nonsense to play GTO vs someone who doesnt play GTO. Especially because you cant play GTO, it is not even solved. You can just try to play it, and play suboptimal. It is off course ok to understand the "GTO" model which is very approximated and abstract and it is not even 1% solved, but it serves to know when is somebody exploiting you, when do you do something totally wrong.
    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,530

      For example a board like A-3-7 rainbow basically grant you no outs , the best semibluff you can pull on those boards is the backdoor flush draw but this alone is quite a weak semibluff.
      You have plenty of bdfd. You can float Kx hands with bdfd which anyway beats bluffs and this board will be often cbetted bluff heavy by many players. You can also float 89s with bdfd as it has many cards on turn which improve your hand to 2nd pair, OESD or fd.
      If board is very bad for your range especially OOP, you can still fold on flop all hands which you cant call comfortable. So you dont need to deny villian from bluffing in each situation.
    • AtrociousNightmare
      AtrociousNightmare
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.04.2010 Posts: 1,185
      Originally posted by Suboptimal88
      ok as far as i understand gto takes a specific board then it assigns all parts of your range into different groups , sdv/value/bluffs etc.

      Gto cares about each board individually , your range must be balanced on each board.

      In todays games some people tend to be very unbalanced on most boards.

      For example they will raise a lot on Q-x-x boards or they will fold a lot on three broadway boards , this is purely a hypothetical example.

      Atm i try to fix my lines when im oop and i miss on the flop.

      Some boards will generate a lot of outs like overcards/gutshots/flush draws while some others will not give you many options except sdv and stone cold bluffs.

      For example a board like A-3-7 rainbow basically grant you no outs , the best semibluff you can pull on those boards is the backdoor flush draw but this alone is quite a weak semibluff.

      Some other boards will make it very easy for you to semibluff etc.

      Anyway which option should i choose when i decide how to react otf? should i try to balance my range on each board individually or should i simply ignore bad boards and play on boards who grant me a lot of options?

      could you create a pseudobalance or even gto , if you bet a lot on some boards and fold alot on others?

      its very hard to create a balance line in A-2-7 rainbow type boards with a wide range especially when the opponent has the initiative and you are oop , there is simply nothing but backdoors and sdv on those boards , its hard to react a lot in order for your range to be balanced.
      Since you got some pretty detailed answers already, I'll try to give you a more general one.

      GTO comes to play only against people you can't exploit, also known as other people applying GTO almost perfectly (you can count them on your fingers and toes).
      Now, considering that, wherever you live, until NL200 the field is filled with people that don't have the slightest idea how to play following GTO, then just play exploitative.

      Don't even worry about it.