[Advice needed] How to reduce my cbet %?

    • Th334
      Th334
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.11.2012 Posts: 971
      Hi guys

      I've recently played 10k hands at NL5 SH, and by the look of things my biggest leak might be cbet: playing VPIP:25/PFR:23 I have flop cbet of whooping 90%! Cbet success is 44%, which seems kinda nice, but it includes cituations when people folded to my value cbets too, so my bluff cbet success must be worse.

      Could I please ask for your advice:
      1. What is a reasonable (plus-minus) cbet value for a TAG on micro stakes SH tables with my stats?
      2. Could you please give me a list of your tips on how to reduce my cbet (even if they are obvious, like don't cbet calling stations on drawy boards)? I'm sure I'd learn a lot from a list like that! (or just a paragraph, if you don't like lists)

      Thanks!
  • 12 replies
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,694
      "My bluff cbet success must be worse"

      That's not true, the stat takes into account everything. Your bluff cbet success is 44% as well. I guess getting your opponent to fold when you have a value hand is not a success.

      1. 70% should be fine
      2. Stop cbetting small/medium pocket pairs so much. Learn to check-call with 2ndpair, especially if they are higher than an 8. Check-call some weaker top pairs sometimes. Don't bet semi-wet flops with 0 equity (A:sT:h4), take hands with backdoor flush draws to bet (spades or 1 heart)
    • metza
      metza
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.01.2012 Posts: 2,220
      Check fold your air with absolutely no backdoor potential.
      Make sure you adjust to multiway pots - more likely someone has it so bluff a lot less.
      Check some medium strength hands.
      Remember that when you miss check/raising is also a way to win the pot.
    • Th334
      Th334
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.11.2012 Posts: 971
      Originally posted by mbml
      "My bluff cbet success must be worse"

      That's not true, the stat takes into account everything. Your bluff cbet success is 44% as well. I guess getting your opponent to fold when you have a value hand is not a success.
      Interesting... I think true bluff cbet success should be lower exactly because of the situations when weaker folds. If my bluff cbet success was 44% it's auto-profit, but this number is increased by the folds when I actually value bet.

      Imagine: 10 flops, we cbet 6 times as a bluff, and 3 times for value. Get 2 folds when we bluff and 2 folds when we value bet, the rest calls. Cbet success will show 4/9=44%, but it's not what we want, because we included the folds where we didn't bluff. It should be 2/6=33%.

      It's confusing though, and not that important for this particular discussion :)

      Thanks a lot for the tips, they are amazing!!! Especially the small pockets one was an eye-opener after I looked up in Equilab what is our equity in these spots against a pair (8%!).
    • Th334
      Th334
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.11.2012 Posts: 971
      Originally posted by metza
      Check fold your air with absolutely no backdoor potential.
      Make sure you adjust to multiway pots - more likely someone has it so bluff a lot less.
      Check some medium strength hands.
      Remember that when you miss check/raising is also a way to win the pot.
      Thanks to you too, agree with everything. Do you check/raise instead of cbetting sometimes? I don't really. Could you please share your preferred spots and logic behind this line?
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,694
      on boards where your range is relatively weaker (middle card boards) to your opponent's calling range, you should check-fold a lot. This gives your opponent the incentive to bet a lot when checked to. When his range becomes very wide for bluffing, this makes it a good check-raise spot (both with air and value)
    • Th334
      Th334
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.11.2012 Posts: 971
      Originally posted by mbml
      on boards where your range is relatively weaker (middle card boards) to your opponent's calling range, you should check-fold a lot. This gives your opponent the incentive to bet a lot when checked to. When his range becomes very wide for bluffing, this makes it a good check-raise spot (both with air and value)
      You make even more sense than the central theorem of poker! :f_biggrin: Thanks!
    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Gold
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,070
      One book looks good from Janda - Applications of No-Limit Holdem - you can read about flop play, its hard often to understand so you will have lot of work todo, and discuss with others, but I hope its good stuff.
    • RakeWhore
      RakeWhore
      Basic
      Joined: 17.07.2014 Posts: 8
      90% is deffinatly a big leak. When i started playing i was reading some poker books and one sentance really changed my view on cbets. "Remember that most flops miss most of players hands " So with that in mind, when i see someone cbeting over 65% i can check-raise him with any two cards and make a profit.

      So first of all, try lowering it down to 60% at first, then when you get at around 50-55%, it will be ideal.

      Try checking back weak top pairs, and sometimes even strong top pairs on a dry board ( AKhh on Ac2s9d ).
      When in positon go for pot control on wet boards ( especially when you have backdoors to a straight or a flush , like K9dd on KcTs2d )
      Don't always cbet medium poker pairs IP on boards with one overcard ( like 99 on J53r )
      Use this thought process a lot "If i bet, is there a weaker holding calling me, but if i check, someone with air might go crazy" for example holding 7h8d on Ks7h6d.
      Don't cbet 33/44/66 etc. on QT9 boards, it will just get you into trouble, and someone with draws may raise you and make you fold your hand that still has some showdown value.
      Do not cbet into 3+way pots without a strong holding or without any equity.
      Generally don't cbet without equity.


      That should all lower your cbet :D
    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Gold
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,070
      Actually I myself have about 50% cbet but coaches say its too low. But I focus on flop play but I have no idea how to make it bigger unless I would start to play as earlier I did - almost no check calls as bluffcatches.

      One guy says also its good to have such cbet stat. And he does good at NL10, dont remember exactly, but I think on zoom he showed 7 bb/100 over 100k hands or sothing like that so I give credit to what he says, he also discuss with NL50 crusher so he learns from him.
    • RakeWhore
      RakeWhore
      Basic
      Joined: 17.07.2014 Posts: 8
      My coach ( NL100 NL200 NL400 winning regular ) says that cbet around 52 -55 is excellent. I don't really understand when players who are winning at NL25 and NL50 tell me " cbet needs to be 60-65", thats crazy, to cbet 60% of your hands is just throwing money awaay both doesn't mind if you play fish, nit or super agro player.

      Also yeah, you don't have bluff catching in your arsenal if you cbet most of the pots, and thats a great weapon for making money.
    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Gold
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,070
      My coach ( NL100 NL200 NL400 winning regular ) says that cbet around 52 -55 is excellent. I don't really understand when players who are winning at NL25 and NL50 tell me " cbet needs to be 60-65", thats crazy


      I think high cbet maybe is ok because on low limits people don't defend enough. About NL100+ they should defend often. But I think oblio said that even on low limits they bluff vs missed cbets a lot, even fish. And good thing is that fish if he bluffs, he does not understnad ranges, textures so he also should make many mistakes.
    • w34z3l
      w34z3l
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.08.2009 Posts: 13,295
      Hey guys,

      55% is considered decent theoretical value for cbetting.

      65% usually ends up being optimal for the micro-limits since average reg is folding considerably over 40% to cbets (auto profit with 2/3rds pot cbet).

      Usually when this stat gets too high it's caused by

      - Cbetting total garbage just because "the board is dry"
      - Cbetting 2nd pair type stuff which can be +EV but may make better bluffcatchers
      - Not defending checking range by occasionally x/c or x/r some of our continuing range