A few questions about beginners course...

    • arnsaa1
      arnsaa1
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.12.2013 Posts: 71
      Hello,

      I was playing poker for quite some time, I've built my bankroll from $50 to up to $120 by playing NL2 and then I stopped playing for some time. Now I'm back and I thought it'd be a good idea to rewatch some videos and reread some articles on PokerStrategy. So I was watching NL Beginners Course with veriz - Lesson 1 video and after watching half of it I stopped it. Why? Because I didn't get it what was going on. Like when I played poker I discussed my hands with some good poker player, he was helping me out and stuff (he's gone now) and I remember when I had a hand like QQ for example and there's K or A on the flop, I should just c/f, well maybe try and call one barrel. What happened in veriz's video was he had JJ on BB. There were two limpers from EPs. So he raised $0.16 (NL2) <- that was the first thing that attracted my attention. Shouldn't he raise 3xBB + 1BB for being OOP + 2 BBs cuz of 2 limpers - that adds up to $0.12, not $0.16.

      So anyways, he got called by one opponent. The flop is 6K4 rainbow. He donks 3/4 of the pot for some reason. WHY? I mean any Kx beats him and there are some Kx in his opponent's range definitely. His opponent might also have QQ+, cuz fishes like to limp/call with hands like that. The opponent could also have a set, cuz fishes also like to limp/call with any pocket pair. So the opponent called his donk and the turn is 3 and he fires the 2nd barrel. Again... why? I mean if there wasn't a king on the board, it would be fine by me, but now... I can't think of a reason why would he do that?

      Btw there was a similar situation where he had 66 and there was T on the flop.

      Edit: here are another two spots: he gets TT on MP2, raises and gets called by MP3 pre. Flop is As8s4d and he donks again. Ax is definitely in his range and he most likely has it. Turn comes 8d and he decided to c/f but he mentioned that firing 2nd barrel is also an option to protect our hands from draws.

      On the other hand he has J8s on SB. BTN limps in, for some reason he decides to raise (well, maybe he was trying to collect dead money, but is it really a good idea to do that with Jd8d and especially from SB?). He gets called by BTN and the flop is 4c5hQh and he donks 3/4 of the pot. WHY!? Isn't it one of the biggest mistakes to try to bluff out the opponent on micro stakes, especially NL2?
  • 13 replies
    • Harrier88
      Harrier88
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.05.2012 Posts: 1,971
      Keep in mind that the video is now over three years old. The game has changed since then, and what was profitable in 2011 is not necessarily profitable in 2014. The standard raise size of 4BB + 1 for each limper, which was common back then, is an example.

      Also, if I understood correctly, the beginner's course you mentioned is by now discontinued and replaced by these lessons.
    • arnsaa1
      arnsaa1
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.12.2013 Posts: 71
      Okay then how do I know if articles like How to Play After the Flop aren't "out-dated", too? I mean most of the bronze articles were written some years ago and it means that they are out-dated also, aren't they? If yes, what the heck should I read then?

      P.S. why are they still answering to the new Beginner's Course threads? I mean people are doing homework from that course and BogdanPS (PokerStrategy's coach) is helping players with their homeworks.

      P.S.S. NL2-NL10 is all about ABC poker, do you really think it has changed so much over 3-4 years?
    • Harrier88
      Harrier88
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.05.2012 Posts: 1,971
      Originally posted by arnsaa1
      Okay then how do I know if articles like How to Play After the Flop aren't "out-dated", too?
      Articles like these are not supposed to be a complete strategy anyway. They are mainly aimed at complete beginners (as in "just learned the rules") and serve as a general guideline, to point out some things beginning players should watch out for. For that purpose, I believe they're still completely fine.

      All the articles after the first three from the link I gave you, which give some more in-depth advice, are quite recent.

      Originally posted by arnsaa1
      why are they still answering to the new Beginner's Course threads? I mean people are doing homework from that course and BogdanPS (PokerStrategy's coach) is helping players with their homeworks.
      Is that so? I was not aware of that.
      I remember reading a forum post earlier this year that claimed that the beginner's course will be discontinued...

      Originally posted by arnsaa1
      NL2-NL10 is all about ABC poker, do you really think it has changed so much over 3-4 years?
      I can't really comment on that since I'm mainly a SNG player and I have only played cash games since late 2013. From what I've heard, though, the games did get a little tougher in recent years, even at microstakes. They are still mainly about playing ABC poker, but I still don't think that everything from three years ago would work just as well today.
    • arnsaa1
      arnsaa1
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.12.2013 Posts: 71
      Well, frankly I can't tell you if they still do it. I did this course in February I think and back then the course was still running and BogdanPS was checking everyone's homework.

      Anyways, what do you suggest? Skip all the videos that are in the videos section and just read all the articles from No-Limit section?
    • tightfish19
      tightfish19
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.05.2013 Posts: 76
      Is there any reason why pokerstrategy can't include a date with the strategy articles (i.e. when they are written)? Then the reader can decide if it is outdated or still relevant.
      After all when you buy a strategy book it has the date of publication.

      Just a suggestion to avoid this sort of confusion.
    • Lazza61
      Lazza61
      Headadmin
      Headadmin
      Joined: 23.03.2011 Posts: 9,151
      Hey arnsaa1,

      The NL beginner's course was actually discontinued in December last year with our release of Poker School V2.0. As part of this upgrade all strategy articles were checked for relevance in today's game and updated as necessary.

      BogdanPS is just a fabulous guy and was still marking homework for a while after the course closed. :f_love:

      We now recommend you post questions on the No Limit board if you need clarification or further explanation of strategy articles.

      Regards

      Laz
    • Harrier88
      Harrier88
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.05.2012 Posts: 1,971
      Originally posted by arnsaa1
      Anyways, what do you suggest? Skip all the videos that are in the videos section and just read all the articles from No-Limit section?
      New videos get released all the time, there's no reason to think they are all outdated. For bronze members, there are 150 videos available on NL alone.

      It all depends on what you want to do. Do you want to refresh your knowledge of the game, and redevelop your strategy from the beginning, like you would have done with the beginner's course?
      In this case, I think the new NL lessons I showed you earlier would be a good choice. They're structured in a logical way and they are all fairly recent, except for the first three, as I said, but you could probably skip them anyway since you're already familiar with the game.

      Originally posted by tightfish19
      Is there any reason why pokerstrategy can't include a date with the strategy articles (i.e. when they are written)? Then the reader can decide if it is outdated or still relevant.
      You can check the date of the oldest comments to get a hint about the release date.
      Besides, just because an article is old, that doesn't automatically mean that it is obsolete. Not every single thing inside it might be the optimal way of playing today, but most of it should still be applicable.

      Doyle Brunson's Super System was written in 1979, and while parts of it may indeed by a little outdated by now, it is still widely considered a useful book containing strategies and statistics that are still relevant to this day.
    • NutzAreOk
      NutzAreOk
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.01.2011 Posts: 7,409
      I`d like to also clarify one thing. All three example you gave, you said hero donkbet flop every time. At each example hero is preflop aggressor and hence he make every time more or less stantard continuation bet. We can argue whether the flops are good or bad to make cbet but I wanted to remind that at the time players cbet a lot. And also that donkbetting is different that cbetting. :)
    • arnsaa1
      arnsaa1
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.12.2013 Posts: 71
      @Harrier88: I've been reading article How to Play After the Flop now and I'm really starting to think that it's for higher limit players, not for NL2-NL5 players. Bluffing and slowplaying is discussed in this article. WHY would you want to bluff or slowplay at NL2 or NL5? It's like the biggest mistakes on these limits.
    • Harrier88
      Harrier88
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.05.2012 Posts: 1,971
      Originally posted by arnsaa1
      @Harrier88: I've been reading article How to Play After the Flop now and I'm really starting to think that it's for higher limit players, not for NL2-NL5 players. Bluffing and slowplaying is discussed in this article. WHY would you want to bluff or slowplay at NL2 or NL5? It's like the biggest mistakes on these limits.
      The only time when this article recommends slowplaying as an option is when you have safe hand like a full house or better. It actually mentions that slowplaying in general is a bad idea at the micros:
      "For most normal scenarios slowplay is the worst route to take. The reason is that there is a simple rule of thumb on the lower limits that you should never forget: your opponents are more likely to call a bet than to bet themselves."

      Bluffing is also only recommended if it is done as a c-bet on a suitable board and against only one or two opponents who are likely to fold.

      I don't think that bluffing in general can be considered one of the biggest mistakes at NL2-NL5. It is a mistake if it is done too often and in the wrong spots, but it is still profitable if done correctly.
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,901
      Originally posted by Harrier88
      I don't think that bluffing in general can be considered one of the biggest mistakes at NL2-NL5. It is a mistake if it is done too often and in the wrong spots, but it is still profitable if done correctly.
      Perfect! Well said Harrier88!

      Anytime you see a hard-and-fast rule like "at the micros, when they x/r they always have it" then you have a license to x/r with atc. Example:

      You call a BTN open-raise from the BB holding 77
      The flop comes K63r.
      Hero checks, BTN bets 1/2 pot, Hero raises 3/4 pot, BTN folds

      It is STUNNING how often this works.
      If BTN calls, you still have 2nd pr, a backdoor straight draw and 2 outs for a set,
      If BTN raises, you can get away, and you can just hear all the notes: "Idiot folds after x/r on dry flop"

      But if you over do it, you become a cash donor.
      Once in a while is great -- especially if actually flop your set.

      You can also x/r monster draws if you want -- if they check behind, that just means you get a free card.

      Oh -- and about videos, courses and articles:
      The very basics are just that -- they provide a fairly safe starting point for absolute beginners.

      Videos by coaches will necessarily reflect the coaches style -- some are tighter than others, some are more aggressive than others.

      Peace,
      --VS
    • arnsaa1
      arnsaa1
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.12.2013 Posts: 71
      I see. Btw why did you discontinued the course then?
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,901
      Originally posted by arnsaa1
      I see. Btw why did you discontinued the course then?
      The original course was run by a coach named veriz, and involved coaching sessions, homework and lessons.

      The material was preserved, but the "course" aspect of it was eventually discontinued.
      Now, for BSS, just go here:
      http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/bss/ and proceed through the articles at your own pace.

      If you prefer SnGs, the material is here:
      http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/sng/

      Best of luck,
      --VS